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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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a letter to the woman who called me a terf

1000 replies

carrotandcornsoup · 10/12/2017 07:01

To the woman who shrieked at me that I am a bigot and a terf and a hateful transphobe for defending women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and you're referred to throughout your pregnancy as a birthing individual, a pregnant person, and it makes you feel kind of dehumanised and you wish they'd just call you a woman, a mother, because that's what you are. But they're not allowed, because it's illegal to say only women can be pregnant and give birth.

Remember me when you give birth and you feel vulnerable and exposed and you really want a woman beside you who understands what you're going through and instead your midwife is a six foot man with stubble in a dress and you know he isn't a woman but you're not allowed to object, even when you need to be examined and you just want a woman to do it but you know you can't say anything because that would be hate speech, even though your body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who has lost her mind to dementia, goes into a care home and is told that her carer, Susan, is a woman, because you asked that she only be cared for by women. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that Susan is a man, and you know Susan is a man, but you cannot object, and she has to allow Susan to perform her intimate care, because to object would be hate speech.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because Lucas in her class, one of the fastest boys, has decided he identifies as female for now and so is allowed to run in her race, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, he will always beat her, and she can only ever hope for a silver medal now. Or bronze, if there is another Lucas.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's noone else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because if you do he'll say he's a woman and has as much right as you do to be in this toilet, a place where many years ago you might have come to feel safe.

Remember me when you go for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. You've put in the hours, you've worked so hard, you know you deserve it. And the position goes to Lola, who until last year was a 50 year old man. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have babies, or to deal with any health issues that you, a woman might face, like endometriosis, breast cancer, PND. Lola is a woman just like you, and your company are happy that they have fulfilled their quota of women members on the board.

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for women committing rape and murder are on the increase, and now women carry out a much higher number of rapes and murders than they did when you were a teenager or a young woman. And you know that these 'women' are men and that the statistics are wrong, but to challenge this would be hate speech. Remember me too, when these women rapists are locked up with vulnerable women in female prisons and cannot escape, because to challenge the presence of the women rapists with penises in prison with them would be hate speech.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas and that his teacher said that because he likes playing with girls and dolls that maybe he is really a girl in the wrong body. And you think, no, you are just my wonderful, unique, son, and you were born in your own body. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that you are not validating your son's identity and that she's noticed you are still referring to him by the name you so carefully chose for him when he was born, and calling him a boy, when he is actually a girl, and that she doesn't want to have to involve social services but she's worried she might have to if you continue to misgender your son and deny his real identity. And you know that she will, because it's happened before in a school near you, and you are afraid.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transactivist friends, your lefty male allies, the ones you stood beside and yellled 'terf, transphobe, bigot' with, with you shouting the loudest, because you wanted to show what a good ally you were, how inclusive, how progressive. Where are they now? Why, they are where they always were. Benefitting from the patriarchy. Enjoying the new, improved version of it that you helped them to build by crushing the resistance from the women who spoke up for their rights. This has all cost them nothing; it has made the world a better, easier place for men. It has cost you and your sisters who campaigned with them for virtue cookies, everything.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for your rights. Fighting to undo the damage.

I'll have your back, as I always have done.

OP posts:
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13
WillowWept · 10/12/2017 21:52

This whole thread is disgraceful and mean spirited. You should be ashamed of yourselves

Could you perhaps engage and explain why you disagree? Genuinely interested to hear both sides of the debate.

Mrskeats · 10/12/2017 21:58

Amazing post carrot

DoctorTwo · 10/12/2017 21:59

Hey @perfectlynormal, are you my dd1? :o

@carrotandcornsoup I posted this to my Facebook and added "If I was a woman I'd be a Terf too". DD1 was most affronted and called me vile and small minded, amongst other things. She used the usual arguments the TRAs use, which I refuted. Then she flounced. Apparently I can no longer refer to myself as a feminist ally. :o

cafeaulaitpourvous · 10/12/2017 22:02

If you want people to take you seriously you need to make a rational argument, not an emotive one

What? Like the TRAs constant threat of suicide and the fact we are 'literally' killing them ?

blackdoggotmytongue · 10/12/2017 22:03

Ereshkigal - she was born male, ‘transitioned’ about two years ago at 35ish, at a guess, but identifies as a woman, not a trans woman. For the sake of clarity when she is presenting on trans issues, she permits that she would fall under the generic umbrella of ‘transwoman’ but this is not how she identifies personally. She is a ‘woman’ who is ‘also’ trans. But primarily a woman.

Interestingly, she only accorded transgender individuals with that level of respect. Her ‘definitions’ intro included cisgender and ciswoman without any trace of irony.

NotTerfNorCis · 10/12/2017 22:04

This 'dinosaur' name-calling is sadly out of touch. Go to Facebook and look at the comments on any thread about Laurel Hubbard, the trans weightlifter. Barely a single one supporting him. Here's a good example:

www.facebook.com/foxsportsaus/posts/1791521800859618

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 10/12/2017 22:04

I'm not holding my breath. On Twitter as soon as anyone attempts to state what just a few short years ago were utterly uncontroversial truths about biology they are accused of hateful bullying. Rational debate is in very short supply.

I'm not happy at all about history being rewritten so that all the gender non-conforming women turn out to have been men and all the gender non-conforming men were really women. No, they weren't. They were trailblazers for breaking out of the stereotypes and in many cases living openly as gay or bi. Children growing up now are not going to have any role models to follow if they happen not to have any gay people in their families/neighbourhoods.

SquirrelWatcher · 10/12/2017 22:12

*My childhood and my memories are just that. MINE. Even memories I share with someone else.

It was shaped by having a brother, not a sister.
I refuse point blank to erase my history for someone else's benefit.

Yet I am asked to.

Why SHOULD I indulge it? What about how that makes me feel? It's a step too far. History has been and gone. I don't wish to revisit it or recount someone else's fantasy. Or put events that have happened into a context that near existed at the time.*

This is my situation too. I do complicated mental gymnastics to change pronouns etc depending if I'm talking to my parents, friends, sibling or DP. ( I don't change history when talking to DP).
I felt like I was grieving my brother for the first couple of years after they transitioned. I've adjusted now to a certain degree, I guess.

RedToothBrush · 10/12/2017 22:19

I have nothing to be ashamed of. I am not allowed to be ashamed.

It is one thing to see from afar. It is another to see it up close and you can never walk away from it.

I would like some one to explain why my experience is invalid and a disgrace. I would like some one to have the guts to explain beyond chastising and name calling.

I'm so done with all that stuff. It's tiresome. It is ignorant.

Ereshkigal · 10/12/2017 22:22

Ereshkigal - she was born male, ‘transitioned’ about two years ago at 35ish, at a guess, but identifies as a woman, not a trans woman. For the sake of clarity when she is presenting on trans issues, she permits that she would fall under the generic umbrella of ‘transwoman’ but this is not how she identifies personally. She is a ‘woman’ who is ‘also’ trans. But primarily a woman.

It will be a cold day in hell before I call a person like that a woman.

daimbar · 10/12/2017 22:23

Ok sure.

Let’s start with ‘Birthing individual’ which would only ever be used to describe a pregnant person with female anatomy who did not identify as female. Nobody is suggesting women shouldn’t be called women apart from hysterical posters on Mumsnet.

My midwife? As long as they were kind, competent and delivered my baby safely they could be male, female, black, brown, gay, straight or trans. Why would their genitals make a difference to me?

My mum with dementia? I am so pleased she is in safe hands with Susan as long as Susan is caring and kind and has passed her DRB checks.

Okay we all know Lucas isn’t playing fair. Changing gender so he can beat my daughter in a running race is totally out of order. There will be no glory in his win but nevertheless in 15 years time lots of young boys will be changing gender just so they can beat the girls on sports day Hmm

That dodgy guy with the beard? He was just another hipster or a FTM trans guy showing off the result of their testosterone shot. He might piss on the toilet seat which is another issue entirely but he isn’t going to rape you.

Lola is very unlikely to get a promotion over me. Check the ‘Mind Out’ charity website - MTF transsexuals have a terrible time trying to find and keep employment. They have one of the highest suicide rates . Give Lola a break she means you no harm.

Some humans are good, some humans are bad, some trans people are good, some trans people are bad. If one trans person does a bad thing it does not make all trans people bad.

Why all the hate? I really despair.

ferntwist · 10/12/2017 22:24

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

slothface · 10/12/2017 22:24

I think the reason we can't have a debate is because the minute anyone comes along explaining why they don't take the same view on these issues they're met with a snide remark about being "good little allies" or something. I don't know if anyone on here really wants a debate despite asking for it.

But more than that, it's because the core of our arguments are so opposed, it's like trying to get a communist to understand a staunch conservative. Their deeply ingrained beliefs and values are on completely different ends of the scale. You believe trans women are men intent on destroying womanhood as we know it, that being transgender is a choice or a sexual orientation, that trans women want to uphold gender stereotypes, that all women want strict gender segregation, that we're all opposed to terms like cisgender.

Whereas the "other side" of the debate believes being trans is as innate as being gay or heterosexual, trans women did not grow up with male privelege because they never felt male so will likely have faced their own challenges (MH issues, bullying etc) for not fitting into the male stereotype, trans women are not trying to erase or redefine what it is to be a woman because they see no divide between themselves and women. They stand alongside us.

Of course there are extremes in any demographic but not all trans women think, for example, that it's transphobic for lesbians not to date them, most accept that issues that affect biological women such as childbirth etc will not be part of their lives but will advocate alongside biological women. Trans women are not some blanket homogenous mass who all think the same thing, there's plenty of disagreement within the trans community on what constitutes transphobia.

It's like saying all Brexit voters are members of Britain First. You can't just lump an entire demographic into ALL thinking the same way. Also, men who may feign being transgender in order to abuse or access vulnerable women (and yes while there have been a couple of reported cases of this, it's hardly an epidemic) is a separate issue. They're not trans women, they're sexual predators and belong in a discussion about sexual predators. Some genuine trans women are also sexual predators - but they certainly don't represent all trans women. That's like saying that because one person lied about being raped, all victims should be treated with suspicion.

And the issues you put in your opening post to try and elicit some kind of emotional response - the being called a "pregnant person", having a trans gynae nurse, sharing hospital wards - for many women these are absolute non-issues.

Aeroflotgirl · 10/12/2017 22:26

Op I totally agree with every word that you have written. It is scarey.

Ereshkigal · 10/12/2017 22:27

And the issues you put in your opening post to try and elicit some kind of emotional response - the being called a "pregnant person", having a trans gynae nurse, sharing hospital wards - for many women these are absolute non-issues.

And for many women they are not. But go on, throw us under the bus to be "inclusive".

Ereshkigal · 10/12/2017 22:28

Come on then sloth. Let's debate.

Wineloffa · 10/12/2017 22:33

Bravo OP! Amazing, moving post. As others have said, this needs to be published somewhere x

WTAFisthisshit · 10/12/2017 22:33

slothface my teenage daughters inform me your very username is misogynistic. The issues mentioned in the opening post are not non issues for them and they have rights and I will fight to have them respected.

slothface · 10/12/2017 22:35

Eh?? How is my username misogynistic?

perfectlynormal · 10/12/2017 22:36

daimbar and sloth are spot on.
Posts like the OPs are inciting hate and make have no place in the 21st century.

RedToothBrush · 10/12/2017 22:37

Sloth the problem is the extreme element are the ones leading this and it's the moderates who are not heard.

Even then this still requires all the strain to be taken by women in how they value themselves and identify themselves being removed as invalid.

Physiologically this in itself is damaging.

It's the lack of recognition of conflicts of interests that is a problem. It's just a steam roller effect.

If this was about moderates trying to work with women that would be one thing. This is something else entirely.

Ereshkigal · 10/12/2017 22:39

Posts like the OPs are inciting hate and make have no place in the 21st century.

Apparently they do have a place in the 21st century, sorry to disappoint you in your little echo chamber.

Aeroflotgirl · 10/12/2017 22:40

Why perfectly, some of whT she is saying is already happening, the way it is going, what she is saying won't be far off. Deny it all you can, but it is the way it will go if things don't change. I think it is helping to reinforce tgat patriarchy, and tge subordination of women.

colouringinagain · 10/12/2017 22:41

Excellent post OP

perfectlynormal · 10/12/2017 22:44

Aero read Daim's post. The OP is just stirring up hysteria. I've never read such a load of tosh.

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