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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lily Madigan - C4 news tonight

548 replies

WichBitchHarpyTerfThatsMe · 06/12/2017 19:04

Just switched over to Channel 4 News and Lily Madigan is going to be on it.

OP posts:
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NotAgainYoda · 09/12/2017 05:01

"His supporters thought he was great"

Yep, it's either evidence of a fucked-up deluded world or trolling.

Mxyzptlk · 09/12/2017 06:02

in front of the pharmacist as women have to do with the MAP.

Angry I had no idea that was a rule!

Thermostatpolice · 09/12/2017 07:52

What is the reasoning for taking the MAP in front of a pharmacist?

Is it to stop teenagers e.g. buying it for a friend who takes the MAP frequently, due to risks of repeated use? Complete guess, I have no experience in this area.

KathyBeale · 09/12/2017 08:01

I've just watched this again. My son has ADHD and some ASD tendencies. One of his things is obsessions. When Lily said: "I just really love Labour", it reminded me of my son saying "I just really love diggers/Thomas/Minecraft/Harry Potter etc".

LizzieSiddal · 09/12/2017 08:06

In front of the pharmacist as women have to do with the MAP.

That comment is not true! At least not in England.

Jenala · 09/12/2017 08:09

Just read this quite long but really interesting article on 4thwavenow.

Particularly interesting was the third type outlined - Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD). The authors state this is almost always a type that occurs in natal females but also that it may affect some natal males. From my limited understanding of Madigan I wondered if it applied to him.

Obviously we don't know what Madigan finds a turn on and maybe he is AGP type. He doesn't seem to be childhood onset though, and he doesnt present in a typical 'male fantasy of women' way, very sexualised etc. The way he came across in C4 also seemed to align a little with the author's description. I'll post some of it here if you don't want to trawl through the article:

The typical case of ROGD involves an adolescent or young adult female whose social world outside the family glorifies transgender phenomena and exaggerates their prevalence. Furthermore, it likely includes a heavy dose of internet involvement. The adolescent female acquires the conviction that she is transgender. (Not uncommonly, others in her peer group acquire the same conviction.) These peer groups encouraged each other to believe that all unhappiness, anxiety, and life problems are likely due to their being transgender, and that gender transition is the only solution. Subsequently, there may be a rush towards gender transition, including hormones. Parental opposition to gender transition often leads to family discord, even estrangement. Suicidal threats are common.

We believe that ROGD is a socially contagious phenomenon in which a young person–typically a natal female–comes to believe that she has a condition that she does not have. ROGD is not about discovering gender dysphoria that was there all along; rather, it is about falsely coming to believe that one’s problems have been due to gender dysphoria previously hidden (from the self and others). Let us be clear: People with ROGD do have a kind of gender dysphoria, but it is gender dysphoria due to persuasion of those especially vulnerable to a false idea. It is not gender dysphoria due to anything like having the mind/brain of one sex trapped in the body of the other. Those with ROGD do, of course, wish to gender transition, and they often obsess over this prospect.

The subculture that fosters ROGD appears to share aspects with cults. These aspects include expectation of absolute ideological agreement, use of very specific jargon, thinking of the world as “us” versus “them” (even more than typical adolescents do), and encouragement to cut off ties with family and friends who are not “with the program.”

Obviously it's not my place to diagnose anyone with anything. Madigan just came across as so vulnerable and young in the interview. I can see the elements that seemed less benign too. But when I read this article which also said many of those with ROGD have other mental health problems, e.g. bpd, depression etc it made me think how Madigan didn't come across as a confident, happy person, rather the opposite.

Jenala · 09/12/2017 08:10

Lizzie the three times I've taken MAP I've had to do it in a side room with the pharmacist. I assumed that was how it had to be!

LizzieSiddal · 09/12/2017 08:17

Jen gosh that’s dreadful. I’ve had to take it twice and I didn’t need to do that.

Jenala · 09/12/2017 08:22

It's pretty shit I feel embarrassed to admit it has been three times isn't it? Or is that quite bad?

LizzieSiddal · 09/12/2017 08:29

I don’t think you should feel enbaressed at all. The fact you took precautions after having sex, is a good thing isn’t it? Unless you want to be pregnant.

HidingBehindTheWallpaper · 09/12/2017 08:53

Very interesting reading about ROGD. This is exactly what has happened to a young person in my family.

It seems to me that once you have thought this might be he case with you then you start talking to people online and support groups. Suddenly you have a lot of friends and people supporting you. You become interesting. Teachers and family change the way they treat you and become sympathetic.

Who would have the guts to walk away from that? Who would be brave enough to say that they got it wrong?

We all did stupid shit when we were teens. We were all confused and looking for reassurance and to belong.
Most of us were just goths for a few years.
We didn’t have groups, teachers and society falling over themselves to support us.

ChattyLion · 09/12/2017 09:07

I’ve heard of all kinds of weird stuff that pharmacists do around morning after pill. It’s not legal to make a woman take it on the premises though as a condition of dispensing it. that’s ridiculous.

On the other hand, out of choice some women might appreciate a glass of water and somewhere to have the pill in private, so it’s good that pharmacies do offer side rooms.

You know that a pharmacist can legally conscientiously object to providing emergency contraception at all, right?

Affording them a lovely lecture opportunity for the woman or girl who comes and asks for it.

And I don’t think objecting chemists have to signpost women to the nearest pharmacy that does provide it. Or have to put a sign up clearly saying they won’t provide it, to avoid wasting women’s time, or inadvertently breaching their privacy with someone who is not going to be helpful and may be obstructive.

None of which is helpful with very very time sensitive form of contraception. I wonder if the non-morning after pill ones also don’t sell condoms to boys and men?

ChattyLion · 09/12/2017 09:09

Jenala it’s only bad if you think all forms of contraception is bad? Even if you think abortion is bad, that’s a different thing. Morning after pill is not abortifacient. It won’t work on an implanted fertilised egg. (But doesn’t do any harm to an established pregnancy).

unplugmefromthematrix · 09/12/2017 09:12

I love the list of questions and the idea of exposing Lily's shortcomings... however the problem with composing a list publically on a forum like this is that it will give anyone working with Lily to come up with a formulated answer that Lily didn't write (if they don't just ignore them of course)

MillicentFawcett · 09/12/2017 09:21

@HidingBehindTheWallpaper - if you watch any of Lily's excruciating videos, he talks about he was watching videos (and probably on tumblr etc) when he realised he was trans. Look at how he's catapulted from zero to hero! Why wouldn't you be trans? After all, all you have to do is wear a dress and people think you're bloody marvellous

YetAnotherSpartacus · 09/12/2017 09:51

Can anyone name an MIT (is that the right acronym for a FtT) who has demanded a role traditionally given males or who has purported to speak for men? I can't. The best I can conjure up is the woman in the hostel who asked her rapist not to violate her because 'she was trans' and a few souls on the internet pumped up on 'T' who denigrate other women. Oh, and of course MITs are the vanguard of the 'pregnant person' or 'men who have babies' brigades. Funny how both sides shit on women-born-women isn't it?

MillicentFawcett · 09/12/2017 09:57

It's TIF (trans-identifying female) I think and no. But then how would that happen? Men know women aren't men and will not move over and make space for them. But they are very happy to encourage men to occupy women's spaces. And as they hold the power, women can't do much about it.

MentholBreeze · 09/12/2017 10:04

To take at a time of their own choosing, rather than in front of the pharmacist as women have to do with the MAP.

I wasn't made to do this either - frankly I was happy to have the discussion about it over the counter in front of everyone in Tescos too, because I just needed to buy it and then DP and I were off to get the kids , and we were already late - but I was ushered into a back room to have 'the chat' - the pharmacist was a young chap and seemed more embarrassed than I was! Pharmacists have a lot of power, and generally that's not an issue, and it's actually good to have someone else there, checking that what they're being asked to dispense is appropriate, but there's the occasional one who's got an axe to grind I find (which is why I stopped using Boots in my old town, and used to go to the next town along)

PersianCatLady · 09/12/2017 10:14

unplug
Good point about the list.

I don't have a Twitter account bug if any one else wants to post a question on Lilly's Twitter today and then post a link back here, I think that would be very interesting to say the least.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 09/12/2017 10:20

Men know women aren't men and will not move over and make space for them. But they are very happy to encourage men to occupy women's spaces. And as they hold the power, women can't do much about it

Agreed. I think it is also about gender though (in a second wave understanding) and also male privilege. Males have been socialised to think that they, as individuals, matter and have inalienable rights to power and resources, public space and women's labour. Females have been socialised to defer to males and not to expect the same kinds of power and privilege (in a broad sense and obviously this is a broad brush). It's just interesting that with all the protestations that one has 'always' been a girl that masculine gendering (and male privilege) shine through like a beacon.

MillicentFawcett · 09/12/2017 10:50

Yeah, agree with that. I was just thinking too in the shower that I cannot think of a single women who has 'come out' as a man in middle age. And yet so many men do. It's so much about AGP

YetAnotherSpartacus · 09/12/2017 10:54

Good point. I'm not sure if there is any evidence of later-in-life transitioning amongst older dykes/butch lesbian women (?), but I certainly do not know of a het woman who has transitioned.

MrGHardy · 09/12/2017 11:04

It seems to me that once you have thought this might be he case with you then you start talking to people online and support groups. Suddenly you have a lot of friends and people supporting you. You become interesting. Teachers and family change the way they treat you and become sympathetic.

Of course it's this. Why else would Lily cry about not being able to take it, but stay on Twitter. He revels in all the messages of solidarity. He was a nobody, most likely with mental health issues. Just by saying he is trans, he suddenly has a gazillion friends all supporting him.

WhoWants2Know · 09/12/2017 11:53

I don’t see that anyone has started a specific thread of questions for Womens’ Officers (including Lily) but I think it’s a great idea. I wouldn’t mind tweeting the same questions to the women’s officer of my local Labour Party either. I actually want to hear their response.

And, after all, if we are all tweeting these questions to our own CLPs as well, then we can hardly be accused of harassing one individual.

ChattyLion · 09/12/2017 11:53

Exactly. Lovely lots of positive attention. ‘Brave’ etc. But it’s at someone else’s expense.

Not at all the same as a lot of other kinds of socially brave or progressive people’s actions at all. Not ‘activism’.