I now have chest pain!

[cafeaulaitpourvous]

Just ventured into the terfisaslur website and the whole site has actually given me chest pain - my anxiety has sky rocketed.

They really hate us don't they? I have never been hated before like this ( I know it's not me personally but it's my beliefs).

I am a left leaning woman of fifty with a lesbian daughter and I am scared for her and all women and girls. I used to be on the 'oh let them be who they want to be - we should respect everyone and help them' but fucking hell this is an onslaught..... it feels like we are at war and our womanhood is at stake.

Fucking shitting bastarding bollocks

My chest pain is improving now

overnightangel - I can't speak for OP, but I would guess it may be because lesbianism is under direct attack from transactivists.

Lesbians are being told they are transphobic unless they embrace the "female penis" and consider pre-op transwomen with penises, beards, and male bodies, as sexual partners.

This whole thing is becoming so disturbing to me now, that I actually talked to my extended family about it at the weekend. I was quite surprised that they got it straight away - but had no idea of this GRA going through... They went into the "that can't happen, can it?" shock.

Datun you asserted

The reason why transactivists hate women is because they, and the cohort they represent, are autogynephiles.

and

Their very reason for being relies entirely on viewing women through a misogynistic lens. On women strictly adhering the gender stereotype of compliance, obedience, physical appeal and never-ending sex on tap.

Your prejudiced assumptions and theorising come in when you assume the above just because someone is a TRA.

Especially when you consider that the bar seems to be very low for what causes a trans person to graduate to becoming a TRA.

A bit like the observation someone once made that if a woman does anything to distinguish herself from a doormat people assume she is a feminist, the moment a trans person does similar they become a trans rights activist. The moment they argue forcefully in an online discussion or, say, makes a complaint to a workplace because a worker refused to use their preferred terminology and/or misgendered them, they become a TRA it seems.

No amount of linking to articles explaining what AGP is and what its characteristics are, entitles you to assume the stuff above on no other basis that someone is a TRA.

I think if you drew a venn diagram with transactivists in one circle and autogynephiles in the other circle, they would be practically on top of each other.

Not all trans people are transactivists. Datun means something specific by the term, and women here understand what she means when she's using it. It's pretty simple. Transactivists are the ones who want women's rights, not human rights.

@overnightangel - shoes is correct.
I am concerned for all women especially my wonderful daughter who is totally signed up to the Transwomen are women dogma. She cannot see how homophobic the TRA movement is.

And to the poster who asked about my heart - chest pain is one of my anxiety markers. I am ok but thank you so much for considering me.

Why are the general public seemingly more inclusive.

I don't believe they are. There's been a case in Plymouth where men have complained about a trans-man using their gym changing room. We hear a lot less about TIFs wanting to use men's facilities, if it was more common there'd probably be more complaints from men.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/05/05/uk-gym-banned-trans-man-from-using-mens-changing-rooms/

JAPAB

It depends what you mean by TRA. (TRAs don’t bill themself as such).

The TRAs I am speaking are almost to a man AGP. It’s very easy to distinguish them. Because they are the ones driving access to women’s spaces for everyone The two things go hand-in-hand. Hence high-profile transwomen coming out and trying to make a distinction between them.

But I’m sure you know that.

So, JAPAB is now contending that women interpret rape threats and sexual abuse as misogynistic because we 'filter' information through our 'victim complexes'.

I have't come across any 'forceful arguments' from TRAs as to why they should have the right to claim that they're women, enter women's spaces, censor women talking about their female experience.

What are the 'forceful arguments' that I've filtered out?

And where are the considered responses to women's objections?

That's an interesting link from the Pink News about the trans man being asked not to use the male changing rooms, following customer complaints DistaffSide.

It seems that men get to force their way into women's spaces, but also get the right to exclude women from theirs.

Yes, the one time a transman tries to do what 'transwomen' have been doing for a while now, they are told a flat out no. And thats the end of it.

Interesting. Almost as is a male no is more important than a female no.

I think the people here trying to conflate gender critical thinking with homophobia or even transphobia are missing the mark by a long shot.

Most of the women here do not want to deny trans people their rights. They are simply asking that women’s rights aren’t eroded to benefit another group.

Most poster on here can also differentiate between trans people and the TRAs. One is a set of people just trying to go about their lives and be comfortable with themselves. The other is a cultish political group with a fairly nasty misogynistic agenda.

Trans people should not suffer discrimination and need safe spaces. Just like women do. But the logical conclusion is not to take these spaces from women to achieve this for trans people.

This is nothing like racism or homophobia. Conflating being gender critical with those taboo opinions is merely ment to shut down debate. I haven’t seen anyone on here say that people shouldn’t be allowed to be trans or should live lesser lives. The concern is around the hateful narrative coming from the TRAs. Nowhere have I seen a rad fem or anyone gender critical tell someone to die or set themselves on fire or make fun of someone’s outward appearance. Not so of the TRAs. Somehow, they can be as abusive and misogynistic as they like and still be a victim. Neat trick, eh?

Datun It depends what you mean by TRA. (TRAs don’t bill themself as such).

Yes, they are classified as such by others the moment they do anything to distinguish themselves from the "good" trans people, the ones who just quietly live their lives accepting what they currently have and keeping their heads down. Only a few days ago you described an incident to me where a trans person requesting that they deal with a different employee over some sort of dispute about terminology which made them worry about the specific person potentially treating them transphobically. Or some such. You decided that the person is a TRA and referred to them as such.

If however you qualify your comments as only applying to the TRAs with AGP, and who have the sorts of thought processes you describe, then no problem. Of course it is not prejudiced theorising to say that someone with AGP has AGOP or someone who thinks women exist to provide sex on tap thinks women exist to provide sex on tap.

Trickier when you just decide these things about an entire group. As I said, no doubt all true with some individuals, prejudiced for others.

JAPAB you haven't answered my questions about what and where are all the forceful arguments from TRAs about why they insist on their right to be called women, intrude on women's spaces etc?

You know, the ones that logically set out their case, respond thoughtfully and rationally to other opinions and propose solutions that respect the needs and wishes of all parties?

A TRA is exactly as the name describes, a trans rights activist. What is worrying is that being a trans rights activist seems to require the inability to discuss, accept and criticism and to other any person who doesn’t instantly agree with them.

Being gender critical (as in not accepting your gender being defined by a small group of people in a regressive manner with negative connotations for most of that gender) is not transphobic. It is about standing up for women’s rights. If TRAs didn’t insist on debasing and abusing women then there would not be an issue.

A middle ground can be found here. But no one in the TRA camp is even prepared to listen to concerns or accept that there might be a problem with self identification.

I really struggle to get beyond the group think that hails any mention of a female body part (breasts, cervix, uterus) as transphobic. Or the declariontions from some TRAs about lesbians. Surely that is the homophobia here. No?

Only a few days ago you described an incident to me where a trans person requesting that they deal with a different employee over some sort of dispute about terminology which made them worry about the specific person potentially treating them transphobically. Or some such.

I honestly don’t know what you’re referring to. Perhaps you can cut-and-paste?

Trickier when you just decide these things about an entire group.

Men who are demanding access to women and ignoring women’s boundaries are men we don’t want in there. If they are trans, the motivation is almost definitely AGP. If they’re not, they are MRAs/predators.

Your hairsplitting is bone numbingly boring.

I get it, you don’t give a shit about women. The intellectual masturbation that you men go through to dispute the word no is incredibly telling.

Your hairsplitting is bone numbingly boring.

YY.

I get it, you don’t give a shit about women. The intellectual masturbation that you men go through to dispute the word no is incredibly telling.

This ^^

christinarossetti, what I said is that if they argue in a forceful manner online they become TRAs. I am not talking about the arguments themselves. A trans person would become a TRA for showing a lot less aggressio than, say, telling someone to fuck off or call them a dick or a twat etc, I reckon.

Datun see your post Fri 24-Nov-17 08:58:30 on this thread. Sorry, was a bit more than a few days ago.

As for the rest of your post message received. There are different types of TRAs and this time when you were saying that they hate women, think this, think that, you were referring to the 'where women can go I ought to be allowed to go because I am a woman too' lot. And were not necessarily referring to other senses of TRA such as whatever sense makes the person in the post linked to a TRA.

No, JAPAB, you said very specifically "The moment they argue forcefully in an online discussion..... they become a TRA it woudl seem."

And I asked what the 'forceful arguments' were? And you said that you weren't talking about the arguments.

But do, please. Do explain the forceful arguments that TRAs put forward to outline their position?

As you've so clearly demonstrated, it would seem that as soon as women say anything about their experiences or needs online, some men tend to believe that they need to explain or qualify it, or turn the discussion to focus on men/trans people ie anyone other than women.

japab

Sorry, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

I absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt hate TERFs. I don’t think you’re feminist, I don’t think you’re radical - it’s just ignorant, and frankly a bit embarrassing.

What is your definition of a TERF though dinosaurs? There seems to be a very wide range of people included under that label, many of whom would not say they were feminists to begin with. Seems to just mean woman..in a lot of cases. TERF also seems to include transpeople, if said trans people think that 'transwoman' should not include any man who says he is a woman.

Transsexual people who say dysphoria is an obvious requirement to be 'trans' are either terfs or truscum.

It's interesting, isn't it, how words like 'hate' are so casually used against women, whilst I have never encountered a feminist expressing 'hate' for transgendered people.

I absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt hate TERFs. I don’t think you’re feminist, I don’t think you’re radical - it’s just ignorant, and frankly a bit embarrassing.

That's nice dear.

I absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt hate TERFs.

Ah, yes, and coming online to express your hate towards women is hardly radical either, is it, "dinosaursandtea*?

/yawn