I now have chest pain!

[cafeaulaitpourvous]

Just ventured into the terfisaslur website and the whole site has actually given me chest pain - my anxiety has sky rocketed.

They really hate us don't they? I have never been hated before like this ( I know it's not me personally but it's my beliefs).

I am a left leaning woman of fifty with a lesbian daughter and I am scared for her and all women and girls. I used to be on the 'oh let them be who they want to be - we should respect everyone and help them' but fucking hell this is an onslaught..... it feels like we are at war and our womanhood is at stake.

Fucking shitting bastarding bollocks

My chest pain is improving now

And it's interesting that you state this JAPAB - "I think all discussions should be conducted politely without vitriol. Nor should anyone ever get punched for their views on any of these topics, no matter what they are."

How many feminists have assaulted, abused or harassed trans people, and how many feminists have punched trans people in these debates, would you say?

(clue - the answer is none. It's men and men identifying as women who are responsible for the violence and abuse in these debates).

I think trans people are getting angry because feminists directly oppose them being able to live as they so desire to - i.e. being allowed to live 'as a woman'.

This is why I sadly can't see an equitable outcome for both sides.

There is no living as a woman that doesn't involve being a woman.

And why do you only include male transpeople in that assessment, rather than trans-identified female? One might almost think you care more about male feelings than... oh wait.

I don't think feminists oppose trans people being able to live as they desire. They just oppose giving away womens rights to men. Big difference.

christinarossetti The hatred of women by some trans activists has nothing whatsoever to do with supposed 'transphobia'.

It is quite the coincidence then that the people they seem to be directing their ire towards are "terfs", or otherwise 99% of the time there will be some sort of anti-trans context involved. It won't be just some woman talking about the weather or somesuch.

In this context, your use of 'transphobia' is inaccurate;

I wasn't speaking in that context, which is a context of someone justifying why they think their position is right. I was speaking in a context of explaining why those who think the position is wrong and/or who get a lot more than the stuff you say here (stuff about being mentally ill, perverts, not really women etc etc) might react in the ways they do. And I didn't use the word transphobia myself.

How many feminists have assaulted, abused or harassed trans people, and how many feminists have punched trans people in these debates, would you say?

There is no real way to know for sure is there? If some trans person stops posting on Twitter (say) because of whatever harassment or flak they perceive they are getting, who can say what amount of the commenters are from feminists.

But the physical stuff will no doubt be none or very very little. It is rare almost to the point of non-existence, either way around.

(clue - the answer is none. It's men and men identifying as women who are responsible for the violence and abuse in these debates).

None? If you are talking about abusiveness then no doubt males take the biggest share. Although females can have their moments can't they. Like for instance telling someone to fuck off to the far side of fuck, calling them dicks, twats or wank spangles and so on.

Not sure what actual point you are making here. I said that I reckon debates should be conducted politely and without vitriol. If tou are just stating that males are responsible for the majority of this, well fine.

Lancelottie.

I'd ask you the same question. Why is the current debate focused on women's safety and not trans men entering men's spaces. I think we know why.

JAPAB

I follow a great many arguments between transactivists and gender critical women (and a few men) on social media. Sitting here now, I can think of about three on the gender critical side who express themselves aggressively and sometimes offensively on any regular basis. And even then, they don't deploy physical threats. On the other hand, on the transactivist side (and I include allies as well as trans people themselves), it's almost rare to find someone expressing themselves with the tiniest modicum of respect for the other side. Threats and violent language are so commonplace as to be the norm.

The issue is that trans women don't want to be viewed as 'men'. I'm not picking sides. That's just the truth as I see it. Hence all the "I'm a woman in a man's body."

A more interesting question is why do feminists seem to be more resistant to accommodating trans people? Why are the general public seemingly more inclusive. I do think it is the whole privilege thing and having to check you privilege when you realise that there are groups of men who are arguably more oppressed than the majority of women. It's a bitter pill for radfems to swallow.

Yup, we know why. Transmen can choose to remain in women's areas as they are biologically female, or enter the men's, at some risk to themselves but none, on the whole, to the men.

Where protections have been set up to cater for biological difference, any decent transwoman would understand this and respect it.

It's not a bitter pill, 'checking your privilege' is a Really Naff sort of statement, and I don't think you know what 'oppression' means in this context (which is fair enough - I'd never read any feminist theory either).

A more interesting question is why do feminists seem to be more resistant to accommodating trans people?

Feminists are experts in spotting sexism. And as such, recognize immediately the threat to womens rights if a man can just declare himself a woman,

There is not much focus on transmen accessing mens spaces because females are not (overall) a threat to male people. Plus transmen do not go around wailing about 'I am the same as a biological male', 'gay men should lick me man vagina' and act all entitled like 'transwomen' do (note, not all trans).

The problem with that (for a trans woman) is that is basically means that there is no way to alleviate the issue where they may have been 'born into the wrong body.'

I watched a documentary where a trans woman quoted the results of a study than showed that trans people generally had brains more similar to the gender which they aspired to be than that which they were born as. I don't know if this is truthful but many seem to believe it.

Calling someone a dick, twat or wankspangle is unlikely to kill them, put them out of a job, beat them at cross-country, keep them from participating in public life or impregnate them.

Was replying to the 'biological differences' post.

StigOfThePlump 'Check your privilege'
No. Its just we see the actual problems, not the twee abstract ideology.

For example, do you think its acceptable for MTF to enter the womens only space in a synagogue or mosque?
Do you think Romany or Sikh women are 'privileged' when they need to see a biologically female doctor?
Do you think a woman having a miscarriage is 'privileged' when she wants to do it in a female only public toilet?
do you actually think women who need to use a DV shelter or Rape Crisis are 'privileged'?

Check your own privilege, spouting such nonsense. You have no idea how the invisible women are forced to live.

Stig: no, studies overall don't show that to be true. They show a god-awful muddle of different brain structures and reactions. Good luck if you delve into that area of publication.

StigOfThePlump

But the general public aren't! Every time there is polling done on an aspect of this - males in women's prisons, mixed sex Guide packs, gender neutral toilets - the vote comes out between 70% and 80% against.

To be clear, I'm not opposing women rights or anything of the sort. I do see the real risk of people using the loophole to walk into women's changing rooms.

But I do think the issue runs deeper. It seems that a lot of vitriol is being thrown at trans people and this seems odd to me if the danger is those people who would pretend to be trans to access these spaces.

I do think the general public are more trans friendly. There is another thread on here where posters are talking about 'men in dresses stomping around'. I don't hear this language from the general public. Only from feminists so far.

It seems that a lot of vitriol is being thrown at trans people and this seems odd to me if the danger is those people who would pretend to be trans to access these spaces.

There are a very large number of people identifying as 'trans' who are currently 'faking'. For want of a better word.

Its transphobic these days to suggest that trans people are 'born in the wrong body' too. No dysphoria is needed. Someone is trans if they simply say they are. So even before we get to predatory men abusing this, there are plenty of 'fake trans' people standing in the queue

Also the 'brain sex' thing is wrong. Yes, trans people like to quote it. but it is wrong.

I'm really interested to see how this progresses. I can't see how both sides can be happy. It does seem mutually exclusive.

I can only see it working if trans people and feminist become allies of some type which seems unfeasible.

A more interesting question is why do feminists seem to be more resistant to accommodating trans people?

Feminists always accepted trans-identified women into women's spaces, whether they identified as trans men or as nonbinary. Feminists also often used to accept transwomen into women's spaces, until they started taking the piss. It was bad enough when we were being asked to share what women had to fight so hard to create. Now we aren't being asked to share, but to hand over wholesale everything we have, without complaint, and be grateful that we are given the chance to be so "inclusive".

Me, I'm a feminist and I have no problem with the accommodation of any trans-identified person, anywhere which matches their biological sex.

Why are the general public seemingly more inclusive.

On this, I think it's because people have been sold the lie that transwomen are the Most Oppressed People Ever, and that transactivism is the new gay rights activism (when in reality it's incredibly homophobic). People want to be nice and liberal and do the right thing, and they've been sold the lie that this is the right thing.

Many people also don't understand that trans means a different thing now, and that being trans now doesn't necessarily mean you have dysphoria, or surgery, or anything like that.