I now have chest pain!

[cafeaulaitpourvous]

Just ventured into the terfisaslur website and the whole site has actually given me chest pain - my anxiety has sky rocketed.

They really hate us don't they? I have never been hated before like this ( I know it's not me personally but it's my beliefs).

I am a left leaning woman of fifty with a lesbian daughter and I am scared for her and all women and girls. I used to be on the 'oh let them be who they want to be - we should respect everyone and help them' but fucking hell this is an onslaught..... it feels like we are at war and our womanhood is at stake.

Fucking shitting bastarding bollocks

My chest pain is improving now

Trans rights? I've never seen a single woman say that trans people shouldn't have rights. If TRAs want to fight for their own safe spaces and trans specific services I will back them all the way. If trans people are being discriminated against in terms of employment, housing etc I will back them all the way.

But the rights many of the TRAs are fighting for is the right to dismiss biology, change the definition of woman and take from women. They don't want their own rights, they want to take women's and they are angry that women aren't capitulating.

Wow I just had a look. Those comments on that website are very 'male' sounding

"I've just received a message giving my personal address saying that a man wants to track me down, rape me, kill me and cut off my head"

JAPAB: "Well you ladies have to expect a little pushback from people whose rights you are denying, don't you?"

Ereshkigal I wouldn't make such a response simply to someone reporting a threat that they had received.

My comments were in response to a person seemingly expressing surprise and bafflement that people on their side of the fence might not exactly be loved by some on the other.

That's what you are actually dismissing though JAPAB.

@JAPAB - thanks for pointing out my feelings are totally crass - baffled and surprised!!! I do understand some folk are against what I believe in ( I also have issues with religion etc) - it was the vitriol spouted by these people that hit me.

But hey thanks for the mansplaining .....

Yeah, its scary. I remember the first time I discovered the incel community of reddit. Then red pillers...and the sheer amount of hatred out there for women (without penises) is astronomical.

JAPAB wanting to protect the rights of women and girls is in no way comparable to being racist or homophobic, so you are being a bit of a dick posting on a thread like this and comparing them as similar.

OP yes, it's just horrible, isn't it? The one comfort I can offer is that while the anger never really goes away, you do get a bit "hey-ho, wankers" about it after a while.

JAPAB wanting to protect the rights of women and girls is in no way comparable to being racist or homophobic, so you are being a bit of a dick posting on a thread like this and comparing them as similar.

The homosexual who gets vitriolic with the person who suggests that they are perverts, mentally ille, and/or shouldn't have the right to marriage or whatever else they may sincerely believe they have the right to, are not equal to what they sincerely believe that they are equal to, etc etc, might not care whether you or I agree with the person they are in opposition to. Same goes for the trans person hearing similar.

They are both just going to get angry (well some of them will anyway) without stopping to check whether ArcheryAnnie thinks their opponents justified.

You are entitled to your opinion as to which of these positions are justified or not, but in terms of simply understanding the motives of others, why they react the way they do, why some of them will hate the people they hate, then there are parallels between the minorities.

cafeaulaitpourvous it was the vitriol spouted by these people that hit me.

Yes I get that. Some people just do not react politely to those they perceive as The Bad Guys holding their group back from equality, do they.

After saying you weren't doing what I said, you're doing it again, you pointless mansplaining bore.

JAPAB wanting to protect the rights of women and girls is in no way comparable to being racist or homophobic, so you are being a bit of a dick posting on a thread like this and comparing them as similar.

Yes. And yes he is.

I should have said: pointless, mansplaining, victim blaming bore

Reading this thread reminds me of another discussion a few weeks back in which the poster compared several protected characteristics (race, sex, gender reassignment) and highlighted how in his opinion they are treated differently. It was unfortunately shut down as it became a bit of a clusterfuck with lots of goading and people taking sides but I found some of the points interesting.

He referred to statistics showing that black men were more likely to rape white women than white men are black women and also to statistics that showed that black people (in America at least) were responsible for the majority of homicides. He tried to argue that despite this knowledge it still seems taboo to oppose integration of black people for fear of sexual violence and murder against white people.

He also mentioned the sexual offences documented in Europe in recent years which have been committed by primarily Muslim immigrants and argued that we still don't dare use these as arguments against the integration of other ethnicities/multiculturalism. It was highlighted that people who do this are often branded as right wing extremists and that the left were criticised as being notoriously quiet on these sexual crimes committed by immigrants, this being at a very stark contrast to the way some of the left are now trying to oppose integration of trans people based on the potential sex crimes that might be committed by people pretending to be trans.

But male sexual crime on females is very well documented. I really doubt anyone could produce anywhere near as much evidence for (as in your example) black people commiting murder.

So the points kind of..not relevant. Unless there IS stats anywhere near the male on female violence rates though I guess. Which I am happy to read through, if they exist.

This wasn't my argument so I had to dig for evidence on the quoted 'facts'. However, there seems to be some truth behind some of the stats mentioned.

It’s true that around 13 per cent of Americans are black, according to the latest estimates from the US Census Bureau. And yes, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, black offenders committed 52 per cent of homicides recorded in the data between 1980 and 2008.

Blacks were disproportionately likely to commit homicide and to be the victims. In 2008 the offending rate for blacks was seven times higher than for whites.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

Don't really want to derail or turn this into a race debate. The comparison of trans to racial issues in this thread just reminded me of the other one and it raised the poignant question of why we don't alienate other groups who exhibit the threat of violence.

DJBaggySmalls

^Women are a specific category. The definition is exclusionary as are all definitions.

The exclusions exist for the safety of women.^

I'm not saying that the below is my actual view, but in keeping with the line of enquiry, what if this was my argument for racial segregation:

"Caucasians are a specific category. The definition is exclusionary as are all definitions.

The exclusions exist for the safety of caucasians."

Honestly, if 98% of rape/sexual assaults were committed by black people against white and 90% of all violent crimes were comitted by black people, it would be very hard to argue against racial segregation. Given these are actual crime rates for male violence, I don't really get the argument. I can kind of see where you are coming from if I try very hard, but the arguments are not necessarily against 'trans' people, its about sex segregation. To me, there are very very good reasons for sex segregation. Maybe you disagree with that, maybe you are just playing devils advocate. Who knows. Either way, the comparison is pretty weak given the stats we do know.

Most black homicide is young black men killing other young black men. So whites are not at risk.

Race is a social construct. There are gradients of physical features. Which is why we have so many mixed race people. A "black" parent and a "white" parent produce mixed race children (who are generally labelled black, but that's because of racial classification in our white society).

But sex is not a social construct. A male parent and a female parent do not produce hermaphrodites, but children who are either male or female (except in very rare cases of intersex).

That's an interesting point, Crome. I was pretty shocked to read about murder being the primary cause of death amongst young black men. I guess the immigrant question is a more difficult one. There are many right wing people blustering about immigrants but the left seem fairly tolerant of them on the whole, in spite of all the sexual assaults, New Year's Eve in particular.

I do wonder if this is because of the way the trans community have approached the matter - playing the identity politics game etc. All this doxxing etc reminds me a bit of when that scientist guy who landed the probe on the moon was annihilated for wearing that t shirt with a cartoon women in a bikini on it. I think there is a certain element of playing 3rd wave feminists at their own game and they seem to be doing it very successfully.

Yeah, I suppose the comparison with black people wasn't the best as they aren't trying to assume the identity of white people. That said, I do agree with the original poster who said that it would be much more taboo to say "I don't want black people in my spaces because they are more violent". With the stats as they are this could arguably be attempted but would just feel so wrong. I can't find a good argument as to why this is.

Ereshkigal Yes. And yes he is.

Well then as I pointed out to the other poster, whether or not you agree with the justifications behind one position but not the other has no bearing on the explanations for why the people who disagree might react the way they do.

People are not going to stop and check whether you two agree with their opponents before getting angry at being called mentally ill, perverts, or shouldn't have the rights they sincerely believe they should have. These things are comparable and have parallels in the context of understanding the whys of why people react the way they do.

Oh and explaining is not condoning. I think all discussions should be conducted politely without vitriol. Nor should anyone ever get punched for their views on any of these topics, no matter what they are. That doesn't mean one cannot be a realist about human nature and not find it surprising, as some here seem to, that there can be extreme reactions.

JAPAB - in reply to your response to my comment upthread...

The hatred of women by some trans activists has nothing whatsoever to do with supposed 'transphobia'.

It is perfectly possible to believe that trans people exist and should have the same legal rights as every other human being, and have the full protection of the law as other people do; also, that trans people have the right to engage, organise and campaign with whoever they choose; also, that trans people should have access to specialist services if they want them, and should be able to ask to be addressed by the pronoun of their choice, whilst also believing that women should have these rights too, and that the experiences, needs and views of all parties should be brought to the table in discussions and legislative changes.

This isn't transphobic. It's asserting that discussions that affect women as well as trans people should reflect opinions from all parties.

In this context, your use of 'transphobia' is inaccurate; you're actually referring to 'trans-centric' ie that the only party with valid views to be expressed are trans people.