I now have chest pain!

[cafeaulaitpourvous]

Just ventured into the terfisaslur website and the whole site has actually given me chest pain - my anxiety has sky rocketed.

They really hate us don't they? I have never been hated before like this ( I know it's not me personally but it's my beliefs).

I am a left leaning woman of fifty with a lesbian daughter and I am scared for her and all women and girls. I used to be on the 'oh let them be who they want to be - we should respect everyone and help them' but fucking hell this is an onslaught..... it feels like we are at war and our womanhood is at stake.

Fucking shitting bastarding bollocks

My chest pain is improving now

Interesting. I think in my head 'trans people' are those who actually live as the opposite sex and attempt to integrate convincingly (through surgery or otherwise).

Stig, as for 'the general public are more accepting', actually, in my immediate acquaintance:

-Most adults have literally never pondered the issue.
-Some think it's the same thing as being gender-neutral, which kind of makes me want to bang my head on the wall.
-One (intelligent, switched on, former nurse) thought that she'd vaguely heard about transgender, and wasn't it something to do with Caster Semenya?
-The men, when questioned, tend to say, 'No, I think you must have got that wrong, that wouldn't happen' (about things that have happened and are now happening) and then ignore the rest of the discussion.
-The under-25s look horrified and hiss 'You aren't allowed to say that!' if you mention females being female and other contentious issues; or they tell you earnestly that We Now Know that there are 75 different genders, because Science. Some of them think transwomen can now have babies, because Science. At least one of them thought that gender reassignment meant all your chromosomes would be changed.

It's really hard to drill down to what any given person thinks is meant by transgender, even if they've heard about it or care any more than they might about, say, bee viruses or baseball results. I wonder if you'd have better luck discussing it in the real world than I do, or whether you'd be instantly shut down or gazed at in bafflement?

Interesting. I think in my head 'trans people' are those who actually live as the opposite sex and attempt to integrate convincingly (through surgery or otherwise).

This is where the disconnect comes in. When people think of 'trans' people they tend to think those who live their own lives quietly, have surgeries to resemble the opposite sex and such.But this definition of 'trans' is transphobic and anyone who says they are trans is actually the opposite sex..according to todays narrative. Its all rather odd and I do think if the general public knew the state of things, they would be against it all too. But most don't know. Feminists do, as they are used to spotting things detrimental to women. But most people do not actually know and still think ;trans' is a 'transsexual' person.

The thread has moved from black people, they're a bit kill-y aren't they? to feminists, they're a bit nasty aren't they?

I can't decide whether this means the thread is getting better as it goes on or worse.

Not really, Nauticant. That's a bit like quoting feminists as saying "trans people are a bit rapey".

How many of them hate women per se is another matter.

The reason why transactivists hate women is because they, and the cohort they represent, are autogynephiles. (As opposed to transsexuals who tend to agree with women).

Their very reason for being relies entirely on viewing women through a misogynistic lens. On women strictly adhering the gender stereotype of compliance, obedience, physical appeal and never-ending sex on tap.

Feminists are a huge double whammy. Not only do they see through it and totally disagree, they do not conform to this gender role that is so rigorously enforced and necessary for the fantasy.

Hence the never ending vitriol attacking the way feminists look. Must be too ugly to rape. People like Mary Beard coming in for stick.

‘Mouthy, opinionated feminists ruining everything.

Datun, there undoubtedly will be individual for whom all of that is true. Others for whom it is prejudiced assumption, supposition and theorising.

YY, Datun

And YY again for After saying you weren't doing what I said, you're doing it again, you pointless mansplaining bore ereshkigal

Rather than asking why feminists aren't more accommodating to trans people, why not ask why trans people aren't more respectful of women's boundaries?

Gender critical feminism is not the same as racism or homophobia. The idea that biological sex is a social construct, while true gender exists in the mind, is really, really radical. I've seen men claim that they are 'biological females' because they are biological beings who think they are female. If a woman doesn't sign up to those ideas it doesn't make her an evil bigot. Most people don't sign up to those ideas. That's why 'terf is a slur'.

Rather than asking why feminists aren't more accommodating to trans people, why not ask why trans people aren't more respectful of women's boundaries?

A question that is rarely to never asked.

JAPAB

Datun, there undoubtedly will be individual for whom all of that is true. Others for whom it is prejudiced assumption, supposition and theorising.

Not really. The profile of an autogynephile is there for anyone to read. The markers for which are neither prejudicial nor theoretic.

You really ought to do some reading if you are unaware of that.

4thwavenow.com/

Never underestimate how much some men hate women. In some men, as your OP notes, their hatred manifests as explicit threats of rape and violence against women. In other men, it manifests as dismissiveness of said threats, with accompanying justifications and excuses directed at the women to whom those threats are targeted.

It's two sides of the same coin:
Man threatens to kill rape woman for refusing to validate his false beliefs/ other man defends the above position in a feminist forum.

There's very little difference really between the explicit woman hating threatening man on terfisaslur, and his apologist on, say, this thread.

Great thread

OP, you ok or do you need to see a cardiologist?

BarrackerBarmer Never underestimate how much some men hate women. In some men, as your OP notes, their hatred manifests as explicit threats of rape and violence against women.

Never underestimate the victim complexes of some women either, and their ability to filter out any salient information that might go against their preferred belief that anything that happens to them is as a result of women-hating (and not because of what they are actually saying or doing).

Few, if any of the posts linked to in the OP are directed at women. "Terfs" and "transphobes" and those otherwise perceived as anti-trans, maybe.

In other men, it manifests as dismissiveness of said threats, with accompanying justifications and excuses directed at the women to whom those threats are targeted.

I know the filter will have blocked this out, but I refer you to, for instance, the second post of this thread. You could just as easily infer that I am being "dismissive" and "justifying" of the vitriol, threats and violence that some black and homosexual people have dished out. And the people they will have dished these things out to, will probably be male in the main. But of course there is nothing here which would allow you to infer a motive of women-hating is there, so the filter blocks it out and leaves you with just the apparent justifying of this sort of thing in the trans debate.

Datun I didn't say AG didn't exist or wouldn't be applicalbe to some, along with all your other described thought processes and motives.

I'm so confused... so 'trans' doesn't mean transgender? And what's a 'TERF'? In fact what is this whole thread about I'm really interested to understand but obviously very late to the party... please could someone explain? (Sorry OP to ask questions on your thread I just really want to know more)

JAPAB

Not really. You said some men would have AGP, for others it will be ‘prejudiced assumption, supposition and theorising.’

When the typology clearly delineates between the two. With characteristics of each.

If one is aware of the characteristics, it’s not prejudicial assumption, supposition or theory.

hollowtree

Trans does mean transgender. TERF stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. A term trans activists use against anyone who disagrees with even the smallest part of the ideology. As it was originally radical feminists who identified the underlying misogyny in the ideology, the acronym was applied to them.

Now it’s applied to anyone. Although, it continues to be used largely against women. If men complain, they don’t tend to be called terfs, threatened or abused.

You could be having a fairly civil conversation with someone about the ideology, but as soon as you say something that contradicts it, in any way, you will be called a terf and blocked, told to fuck off, or threatened. Either way, the conversation will end. The trans-activists hashtag is #nodebate.

Disagreement is not allowed and terf serves to dehumanise anyone who disagrees, and make them and their opinion worthless, but deserving of abuse.

As it is generally directed at women, an interesting exercise is to substitute the word woman. The resulting narrative is horrific.

It’s very effective tactic and results in a similar reaction to the word ‘witch’ of yore.

Thanks datun, I'm still pretty confused about the whole debate TBH, I've seen loads of trans stuff on MN but no idea what any of it means!

Two points.

1. It's not just feminists that TRAs hate and attack - take the recent TopShop case; that's a man trying to use trans rights to deliberately upset young girls. Many trans issues are like that, no "checking privilege" needed. Ditto for sports, for prisons, for refuges - transactivists are directly attacking ordinary women, not feminists, not activists, not the people who are trying to fight back.

1. (I recognise the discussion has moved on, but I hate seeing dodgy statistics unchallenged). With relation to "13 per cent of Americans are black ... black offenders committed 52 per cent of homicides" - I bet if those figures were drilled down, we would find that the areas with high homicide rates (inner cities, poorer areas, gang districts) will have a much higher than 13 per cent non-white population. Stats can be manipulated.

hollowtree

Believe me, that’s no surprise. It’s an absolute bloody minefield.

You will get it though. Keep reading. I’m happy to answer any questions, as often as you like, however daft/basic you think they are.

Most people who come to the conclusion that they need to get their head around this are utterly confused by all the acronyms. And the lack of logic.

You probably know this, but one of the first premises is that the trans-ideology is inherently sexist. A man can’t be feminine. In order to be feminine, he has to become a woman. Because feminine belongs in the ‘woman’ box. Likewise masculine belongs in the man box, and a woman who wants to be masculine is therefore a man.

It rigourously reinforces gender stereotypes.

That’s the initial feminist disagreement.

The next thing is that the government want to support a law allowing self identification of wanting to be transgender.

At the moment you have to be 18, have lived in your preferred gender for two years and have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

The government wants to eliminate all three criteria and make it an administrative exercise. Downloading a form off the Internet.

Which means anyone, any time, can change their sex in a matter of days. Legally.

Which then gives rise to the erasure of sex based protections for women. Because the legal definition of woman no longer relies on your actual sex.

(Strewth, i’ve been talking about this on here for several years, and writing it out like that again, strikes me afresh as absolutely insane).

Thanks so much datun, looks like I've got a lot of reading to do! You've made it all make alot more sense for me anyway so that's very much appreciated.

Maryz

I agree. Online vitriol is reserved for feminists, because they keep calling it out.

But it’s any woman in real life. Any woman will be sacrificed without compunction

“ am a left leaning woman of fifty with a lesbian daughter”
What has that to do with anything ?