Liliy Madigan

[dinosaursandtea]

She's taking a Twitter break for her mental health because of the level of abuse she's receiving. She's a teenage girl, FFS - and even if you think she's a teenage boy, in what world does a 19 year old deserve this amount of bullying?

I hope you're all fucking happy now.

It can never unexist. This is one boy who will do anything for attention.

Does anyone else remember Zola Budd? This story reminds me a bit of that, strangely. She was a young, white South African athlete in the 1980s, at the time of the sporting boycott of South Africa. She managed to magic up some British ancestry and was brought over to Britain so she could compete for Great Britain in athletics events. She was 18 at the time.

Everyone who opposed apartheid was furious about it, but her defendants would always say things like, "Leave her alone, she's just an 18 year old girl." (The word "vulnerable" wasn't used so much in those days!) Obviously she was being manipulated by the pro-South Africa lobby, who were trying to break the boycott - and what better way of doing it than through a young naive athlete who will do what she's told?

Anyone remember Paris Brown, taken on as a youth Police and Crime Commissioner role in 2013. She was only 17, so was legally a child.

It was found out that she had made inappropriate tweets (aged 14-16, prior to her appointment) and she was very quickly forced to resign. She was described in the Daily Mail as "a foul-mouthed, self-obsessed Twitter teen", demonised widely in the press and denounced by Keith Vaz MP amongst others.

In Paris' case the blame should have been put at the door of those who appointed her in the role. Instead, it was Paris herself who bore the brunt of the attacks. No-one seemed to be worried about her mental health or her being a vulnerable teenager. But then she was only a girl.

And what about Lola Olufemi?

hackmum - Yes! An excellent parallel.
Zola Budd was a runner, brought to the UK from South Africa to avoid the sporting boycott, by the Daily Mail who enabled the fast tracking of her British citizenship.
I was a strong anti apartheid supporter and opposed Budd being in the British team. However, having watched the documentary on her the other night, I realised just how vulnerable she was and how manipulated she was by all those around her - her father, the Daily Mail, the media and political activists. And we all took a 'well she's old enough to know what is right and wrong' approach, of course without appreciating how little actual power she had in all of it. To be honest, she just looked traumatised much of the time.
I think there are significant parallels with Lily.

I remember Paris Brown.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22083032

It really is similar to Lily Madigan in content. One was forced to go, albeit it was a paid post with regard to Brown, but the other is lauded and defended.

The existence of the twitter account is in no doubt Fekko.

To me it's fascinating to watch how brainwashing has swept through Lily's allies meaning that people must drive their awareness of the twitter account from their minds and bellow "FAKE NEWS!" if forced to remember its existence.

This self-brainwashing to avoid needing to reconcile facts and beliefs is all the rage and might be here to stay. It is scary.

Agreed that both of the above are depressing examples of the shit storm that can surround a young individual 'outed' by social media. Looking at both of them, some of the articles are dripping with contempt and are frankly bullying.
But getting people to appreciate the difference between open and free comment and when it crosses a line into bullying is I think challenging. I'm not sure I have a clear definition.

This self-brainwashing to avoid needing to reconcile facts and beliefs is all the rage and might be here to stay. It is scary.

Indeed. It is scary af.

I'm also reminded of mid-era Big Brother (from about the 4th series onwards) when it became very much a matter of taking people who had glaringly obvious MH issues/were unhealthily desperate for attention of any kind, and sticking them into a hugely stressful situation, then manipulating them constantly and turning them into cartoon figures of hate.
Oh, and for those about to say that anyone who applied to go on BB would have had MH issues and be an attention seeker: don't forget about the money. The top prize was, to anyone without a good job or much of an education, a life-changing amount, and the applicants generally knew that, even if they didn't win, there were money-making, life-changing possibilities just because they'd taken part.
LM is an unpleasant, self-obsessed kid but is also a kid who is being ruthlessly used. Part mascot, part martyr - and likely to be thrown to the wolves at some point fairly soon.

"LM is an unpleasant, self-obsessed kid but is also a kid who is being ruthlessly used. Part mascot, part martyr - and likely to be thrown to the wolves at some point fairly soon"

I agree, but more troubling is that LM is being used by a mainstream political group. How many other LM are there, maybe not as sensational but just as vulnerable?

I think mostly, when it comes to political groups, vulnerable but 'passionate' teens are still more likely to be exploited by being given all the grunt work to do (or, of course, groomed by the group's resident predator), because there are still enough adults in these groups to be aware of how fast and how badly this sort of thing can backfire.
LM isn't remotely smart enough to dial down the misogyny and self-importance, so will say/do something completely diabolical fairly soon, and get swiftly dumped by the Party - at which point a further social media clusterfuck will ensue. Which may be the aim of whoever's pulling LM's strings anyway, of course.

Which may be the aim of whoever's pulling LM's strings anyway, of course.

I agree. Which is why taking the moral high ground now, is crucial. Because when it implodes feminists will get the blame unless they have been quite clear about who is responsible for this.

Unfortunately, I think it's quite likely that, even if feminists are smart (and decent) enough to refrain from horrible online abuse, it won't work. Because there are people involved in this thing who are almost certainly malicious enough to throw shit at LM from anonymous accounts with 'feminist' names - and everyone knows you can do that, now. All those horrible 'edgelords' have had years of practice at this sort of thing, and won't give a flying fuck about anyone's distress: chaos and disruption is what it's all about. And, of course, there are the people whose intention is to harm feminists and feminism - and portraying them as the evil witches who 'destroyed a vulnerable teenage girl' would be an effective one.

I agree, but those will be one off accounts. Not the women’s groups, the official ones, like A Woman’s Place and FairPlay for Women.

And, hopefully, now, mumsnet.

Figures cannot be pointed where there is no culpability.

*fingers

Bearing in mind that TRA groups trawl these threads, probably better not to hand them ideas?

Ugh, the first comment below that sausage-fest tweet of Lily's is a "solidarity, OMG you are so brave"-type tweet from Grace Petrie.

I remain so, so disappointed by Grace Petrie. She's done her own "I don't believe you" statements when lesbians have described being put under pressure to sleep with trans-identified males, and now she's sucking up to a man who threatens to doxx women. Lovely. Not. I used to like her so much, and now I am just enraged that she has the cheek to describe herself as a feminist.

SparklyUnicornTractors

TRAs have had ample opportunity to mine mumsnet threads. But they don’t.

They don’t like to draw attention to mumsnet. Mumsnet allows oxygen to flow through the debate and encourages differences of opinion in order to reach a consensus, should there be one.

Therefore, mumsnet is one of the only platforms where civil discourse around this issue remains.

The last thing TRAs want to do is point people in our direction.

Nonetheless, despite his manifest twattery, I’m uncomfortable pinning the responsibility for this on Lily, rather than his puppet masters.

I agree. Which is why taking the moral high ground now, is crucial. Because when it implodes feminists will get the blame unless they have been quite clear about who is responsible for this.

There was a tweet from a TRA suggesting that when Lily committed suicide, TERFs would be to blame. When I responded telling him how utterly irresponsible this was to say, the account was switched to approved followers only.

It's as if they want to suggest that disagreement and criticism of an ideology is the same as hating someone or wishing them harm. It's hard not to be very, very cynical about the motives of some at this point - and I don't mean Lily.

The way some factions of TAs, and indeed Mermaids and the like, talk about suicide and trans people is really, really irresponsible.

Conflating being trans with being a suicide risk (not empirically true tbw) goes completely against guidelines drawn up over time and with much thought by organisations like the Samaritans.

My guess is that no organisation like Mind or The Samaritans will publically criticise their stance, for fear of being branded 'transphobic' and thus not being used by people who are actually indeed, trans people or their supporters.

hey, at least the Labour Party is finally standing up for a woman being bullied by activists.

Kind of unfortunate that you have to be a MAN to get their protection . I bet Jess Phillips wonders where she went wrong.

I am very very angry about this. But worried too.

The reason I will not stand in a role representing the public or a party is because I have fragile mental health and am well aware that as a woman I would face a whole load of abuse just because I'm a woman. Abuse that I shouldn't have to face either. Abuse that men do not receive to anywhere near the same extent.

I would be doing those I sought to serve a tremendous disserve if I was not able to carry out the responsibility I had signed up to if my health failed.

By the same token, why is Lily just so unprepared and unaware of all this? Being the first in anything, brings unique challenges - rightly or wrongly. It does require exceptional trail blazers to champion a cause.

Lily isn't this person for many reasons. But not simply and ultimately because Lily is trans.

Its about accountability and representation.

If it was a woman who refused to speak or engage with certain groups of men, would that be acceptable? Members of parliament are support to represent the interests of ALL their constituents regardless of whether they share their political views or whether they show the 'correct level of respect'.

People who demand respect or compliance before agreeing to serve the interests of a group, are dangerous and do not uphold the principles of liberalism and democracy. It is closer in nature to demagoguery.

A demagogue or rabble-rouser is a political leader in a democracy who appeals to the emotions, fears, prejudices, and ignorance of the lower socioeconomic classes in order to gain power and promote political motives. Demagogues usually oppose deliberation and advocate immediate, violent action to address a national crisis; they accuse moderate and thoughtful opponents of weakness.

The language Lily uses, is repeatedly disrespectful to women. 'Pretty contact data' is dehumanising. It does not recognise the people and experiences that data represents. Its chilling.

Given that Lily gets very upset about others being disrespectful in mis-gendering then if this was sincere, then Lily would be sensitive about how others might react to the language they use too. The fact Lily isn't, sends a certain message to those who have concerns. It says that they are not worthy of the same level of respect that Lily expects personally.

The thing is that, this is not merely thoughtless. The language Lily uses is divisive and deliberately so. The constant use of 'them and us' type language.

I find this particularly insulting in light of the Jo Cox application. 'More in common' was about finding common ground and deliberately working to stop that 'them and us' type stuff, by working with people 'on the other side'.

You can not do that by deliberately trying to shut down debate. You have to make a deliberate attempt to actively engage with those you disagree with, even if you find their views unpleasant.

As I say, I worry, because this is Trumpian and smacks of demagoguery which thrives on being attacked. The more it is attacked, the more the narrative of the victim is right.

Focus on political accountability, rather than trans.

Would you accept a women in the same position who refused to discuss certain topics about biology because they didn't interest them?

Apply the same expectations and standards you should have of any other politicians. Any politician at any level should be. If they attract more media attention, this is for a reason - it represents public concerns which need to be addressed not ignored or merely dismissed. The politician in question should act to either reassure or admit that there is a problem with their behaviour.

Because that is how democracy works.

The failures of democracy at present are why the trans movement is making headway - because scrutiny is less important than identity. Identity is being used as a cloak - from many quarters - for simply not being up to the job at hand. Its about corruption and incompetence and lack of experience and lack of respect for others and the office which they serve.

This is why Lily is not the problem, merely a symptom of a much, much wider problem.

There was a case of a transwoman bullied to suicide by the media, of course. But Lucy Meadows wasn't an attention-seeking asshat. She was a well-liked primary school teacher who happened to have undergone gender reassignment. Somehow, the Daily Hate found out, and hounded her to the point where she killed herself. The judge at the inquest condemned the press coverage.
Lucy Meadows wasn't shouty, contentious, or even misogynistic enough to appeal to the current lot, though.

There's a Reddit thread which I saw someone link on twitter saying how the attacks on Lily are coordinated on Mumsnet.