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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguides now in on the act

230 replies

W8what · 26/11/2017 12:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5117669/Girlguiding-issues-controversial-advice-trans-members.html

OP posts:
norahnamechange · 26/11/2017 15:06

ItsAllGoingToBeFine
I think they have produced he guidelines because transactivists have been writing them, not Guiders, teachers, social workers or parents, ie those who care for children. Transactivists say that those transitioning MUST have access to the sex segregated facilities of their choice immediately. They say that's the law.

gillybeanz · 26/11/2017 15:40

I didn't know what the situation was beforehand but I trust dd school where scouts is run.
You can't move for ticking boxes ito safeguarding, so I'm not worried what they do.
No boy with a penis would have been allowed with the girls no matter how they regarded themselves, school wouldn't have allowed it.

The time will come though, when we'll have to accept that this will happen though. We encourage our children to be who they are, let them choose their gender, we can't segregate once we have become accustomed to this.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/11/2017 15:45

No boy with a penis would have been allowed with the girls no matter how they regarded themselves, school wouldn't have allowed it

Have you checked the guidelines for your school / LEA? I'm fairly sure lots of places in E/W are similar to the Scottish guidelines is young people must be treated as their identified sex,and parents shouldn't be told..

FloraFox · 26/11/2017 15:53

I reckon this was influenced by the trans myths that don’t get discussed but I think the majority of people who are not engaged with this issue believe. In this case it’s the myth that trans identified males are gay and therefore not interested in the girls sexually and also that TIMs pass and therefore won’t be noticed. Also that TIMs have dysphoria and will therefore be very discreet with their bodies. When you engage with this issue you realise all these things are untrue.

MakeMisogynyAHateCrime · 26/11/2017 16:01

Well that's my children out of scouting and guiding as a whole.
I am quite upset by it as they enjoy the younger groups and I have a long history of being in the guides but no, just no.

I am find if they were to make Guides mixed like Scouts because then they would be forced to make provisions for it. They would need separate facilities and camps (DS is a scout and the girls were at the other end of the scouting field this summer). I'm absolutely fine with that, if that's the route parents choose to send their children.

However I am not ok with natal adolescent males in female spaces. How long until teenagers do what teenagers do? How long until some young girl gets pregnant by another "girl"?

If I had been a guide in this day and age I would have felt very pressured to be cool with this kind of thing and may have persevered for a month or so. However having a shower around boys would have been where I drew the line and I would have left but pretended it was because I didn't think Guiding was cool.

Yet again girls will miss out.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/11/2017 16:03

I really hope there is some backlash about this, and that GGUK is forced to actually think about the guidelines, and what they mean, and a wee reading of the Equality Act would not go amiss either.

VerticalBlinds · 26/11/2017 16:22

The idea that because scouts opened up to girls (because they had to to survive) means that guides MUST open up to boys even though they don't need to, because it's snoffair, is pathetic.

Why are men and boys so whiny and hopeless? If you want a boys only adventure type group then you can have one. Start one up, get the volunteers, go for it. Much as women and girls have done.

Senior section of Guides is 14 - 25. Why is it OK to put a 14 yo old girl in with a 22 year old person with a functioning dick? And the policy is not to tell anyone this is happening.... That young man who went overseas to access children, men who want to abuse will go to great lengths. Having overnight access to children like this is a dream come true.

My DD is 10 and in guides and she'd hate to have to get undressed in front of a 14 year old girl, let alone a 14 yo boy.

Gileswithachainsaw · 26/11/2017 16:35

Why are men and boys so whiny and hopeless? If you want a boys only adventure type group then you can have one. Start one up, get the volunteers, go for it. Much as women and girls have done

Well said

I mean surely it's far harder work to just keep trying to piggy back everyone else's stuff and having to keep up with everything all the time just in case women or girls start something else up, to whine about, than it would be to come up with ideas if their own.

Or is it classic " we don't want it but you can't have it either" Hmm

Bucketsandspoons · 26/11/2017 16:36

It isn't about boys wanting access to guides - so the answer would be set one up - trans activism does not want mixed sex anything nor gender neutral. What they want is clearly sex segregated facilities for men and women, but the right to identify their own choice of sex and have all the access that goes with that fictional sex.

The basic dichotomy: by TRA logic and most guidelines now coming out in anticipation, if you refuse to agree that a man is a woman if he says so and that he has absolute right to be in any space and do anything exactly as if he is a biological woman - and carefully moderate your own language and biology not to in any way offend by reminding that he was born without equipment you were 'privileged' by - then you are beneath contempt and guilty of hate think/speech.

We have reached the point where truth and fact is now 'hate' and you are expected to lie and hand over your rights or be shunned. This is where women are going to have to stand up and be counted in a way we haven't since the days of Mrs Pankhurst.

VerticalBlinds · 26/11/2017 16:45

"we don't want it but you can't have it either" this is the mainstay of MRA

Gileswithachainsaw · 26/11/2017 16:47

And don't we know it Sad

Datun · 26/11/2017 18:03

Bucketsandspoons

That is it! We are exactly same as you. We don’t want to dispense with segregation, absolutely not!

We want it to remain and we want to access the category that we identify with. Thank you. Because we are identical.

But you can’t talk about the things that actually do make us different, because it’s hurtful.

Bucketsandspoons · 26/11/2017 18:42

Exactly, Datun. I can't remember who posted this poem first, but thank you.

By Rachel Irischild. "He tells her" (after Wendy Cope)

He tells her he's a woman too
He has a ladybrain
He tells her his identity
and hers; they are the same
He tells her not to talk about
her body; it's not fair
her body is her privilege
his own, a cross to bear

He tells her that she cannot talk
Or otherwise allude
to what her female body does
It's nasty to exclude
He says respect diversity
except he would prefer
that she not point out all the ways
that he's diverse from her

He tells her that biology
does not impact her life
she should still bear his children
but she must call him 'wife'
He says that words must all evolve
She must learn to make do
And now that woman is his word
He's taking 'female' too

He tells her that a woman is
whatever he decides
He will not put it into words
She must not ask, he chides
He tells her he is more oppressed
Than she has ever been
He says she must agree with him
or else she's being mean

She searches for the words she needs
To talk about herself
The billions who exist like her
their lives, their rights, their health
Whatever word she chooses now
He finds a way to spin it
The conversation carries on

But she's no longer in it

HumphreyCobblers · 26/11/2017 18:44

Brilliant.

MrsKCastle · 26/11/2017 18:50

Wow, that really nails it.

MakeMisogynyAHateCrime · 26/11/2017 20:24

Isn't it funny that the worst thing a woman or girl can be is mean. It's never a concern for me, I find.

And boy do they know how to use it as a tool.

MrsFionaCharming · 26/11/2017 20:25

A few points as a Scout & Guide Leader:

Scouts began accepting girls due to a numbers crisis. Even now that they accept all young people they have fewer members than Girl Guiding (people saying that Scouts will take over and Guiding will cease to exist are largely sexist against all-female organisations and not aware of the actual statistics).

In Scouting there is no rules about sleeping arrangements, only that there should be privacy for changing - most leaders prefer to segregate but it’s not actually necessary.

Guiding is now accepting transgirls which I’m very upset about. If one joined my unit, I would be looking for ways to prevent my girls from being forced to share spaces with him, which would sadly result in my girls attending fewer events. I have told GirlGuiding this, but they clearly aren’t listening.

MakeMisogynyAHateCrime · 26/11/2017 20:32

The way girls will be prevented from sharing a space with a MTF child on a GG trip will likely be by the individual leaders becoming too nervous to take the guides on trips. Or too scared to challenge the situation they are faced with and again cancelling the trips.

I for one would not like to be involved in such a trip, especially as the other parents do not need to be made aware. I also wouldn't like to have to be the person challenging a child and their parents on this issue in a voluntary role, considering how this would play out on social media and impact home life and jobs.

Girls will lose out, they always do.

MaryMaryQuiteLovely · 26/11/2017 20:40

That's HairyLittlePoet, isn't it? Love love love her poems

LEMtheoriginal · 26/11/2017 20:43

I am so perplexed by this. Are people saying that trans people mean harm to others?

MrsFionaCharming · 26/11/2017 20:44

Yes, I’ve tried considering the best way to continue to take girls away but I’m struggling to come up with a perfect solution.

We hammock camp a lot, which means all the girls have individual sleeping space. I think if this happen we’d have to exclusively hammock camp and choose sites with properly individual toilets and showers rather than cubicles.

Sadly that does limit the events we can attend because most Girl Guiding sites aren’t set up for this issue.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/11/2017 20:46

Are people saying that trans people mean harm to others?

No. People are saying that males (class) are a danger to females (class).

Also that females have the right to exclude males from some spaces.

MakeMisogynyAHateCrime · 26/11/2017 20:51

No LEM, I for one am saying that some teenage boys like to have sex with teenage girls.

LEMtheoriginal · 26/11/2017 20:56

Some females are dangerous to females.

This is all a bit bonkers surely

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