Girlguides now in on the act

[W8what]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5117669/Girlguiding-issues-controversial-advice-trans-members.html

grannytomine
I understand that you are not bothered about the lack of girls only groups like the guides.
But are you happy that 10 year old girls should share showers and sleeping accommodation with transgender teenagers with penises?
And how are parents able to safeguard their children if they are not to be informed about this?
Finally, what are the implication for say Muslim girls joining the Guides and going on residentials with this policy? Or maybe they just shouldn't go?

If guides accepted both would there be an issue? Where you all complaining when boys lost the opportunity to have a male organisation? I don't believe it was because there weren't enough cubs, definitely not where I live or where I used to live 200 miles away. Scouting was way more popular which was why girls wanted to join

I'm pretty certain it was a nationwide recruitment decision for scouting, will Google in a minute.

With regard to opening girlguiding to boys, that would be a different situation. Parents would know it was a mixed sex organisation (and I wouldn't have to pretend to identify as anything). As it is, parents could be completely unaware that their 13/14 year old daughter is sharing a tent with a male.

I don't think we can complain tbh.
We live in an equal society and that means not segregating on sex or gender.
Maybe there used to be some sense in stopping boys from wearing girls clothes and treating them differently, we all knew where we stood then.

Agree Norah - I don't mind my daughter (11-yr-old) going on camp in a mixed group. They went on a night hike last week with the Scouts. But I don't want her sharing a shower etc with a biologically male child - she'd hate it, for one. She's very self conscious of her developing body.

MrsKCastle it might have been nationwide but I can assure you it wasn't where I lived. The only way I could get my son into Beavers was to become one of the leaders, he jumped the waiting list then as they needed a leader and I wasn't going to do it if he couldn't go.

The good thing about Scouting is that all kids are accepted and this isn't an issue.

Why is the issue with Muslim girls or any girls whose parents aren't comfortable with mixed groups more important than the same issue for boys whose parents preferred a single sex group?

There was obviously a demand for girls to join scouts or we wouldn't have any female scouts. As I stated earlier guiding was in decline in my area and girls joining scouts has accelerated that.

TheOldestCat
I have spent decades taking mixed and single sex groups of adolescents camping, skiing and on residential trips.
Not ONCE did we have mixed toilets, showers or sleeping accommodation. On the more extreme occasions, our duty of care to them extended to patrolling corridors until the early hours of the morning ensuring that everyone stayed in their rooms and maintained the boundaries of not having sexual relations on a school trip (as unwanted pregnancy, sexual assault and harassment happen in schools).
Of course many transgender adolescents will not be a threat to the opposite sex - and of course, some will!

It is old news - but it is significant in that the papers are n ow waking up to what it means.

Grannytomine I understand that not all groups needed more members. I actually think that it would be a very good thing to have a boys only club like girlguiding. However, the scouts made their choice.

Girlguiding is a separate organisation. I wouldn't be a fan of their opening up to everyone, but I would fully understand if they made that choice. But I think if they are going to continue as girls only, it should be based on sex and not identity.

The only trip I remember being a problem was a school trip where we stayed in hotels, all girls school so no issue about sharing anything. One of the girls was found in bed with a waiter. You can legislate for everything.

I'm the scouts, so girls and boys share tents? At what age? Are parents informed? I am interested in the safeguarding implications and how it compares to other organisations.

grannytomine
I think you have misunderstood my question about Muslim girls.
I am pointing out that it is the requirement to share a bedroom or showers with a teenager born male that is the issue, not being in a single sex group.
So, are you happy for 10 year old girls to share showers and bedrooms with teenagers with penises? Can you see any problems?

Why is the issue with Muslim girls or any girls whose parents aren't comfortable with mixed groups more important than the same issue for boys whose parents preferred a single sex group?

Dunno - pop over to a men's forum and ask maybe? This is the feminism section, so we're concerned with the rights of women and girls.

norah even if not 1 single trans person was a threat to teenage girls ever, it's still not acceptable for them to have blanket access to sleeping areas, changing areas or showers. That's because it's not acceptable for the girls to be put in a situation where they have to share those spaces with a male and feel uncomfortable about it. Why should they have to put up with that - even if there were never a threat?

That was an agreeing post - though it may not have sounded like one because I'm So Fucking Angry.

I really worry about the bigger picture. Guiding is an international organisation and one of the reasons it's allowed to operate in some countries is because it's a female only organisation. That's part of the reason why it stayed girls only in the UK. They recognised that allowing males in UK guides wouldnt be that big a deal in the UK but could be catastrophic for girls in some other countries. I think they're making a big mistake.

My dd went on scout camp last weekend.
The tents were mixed. I'm not sure of the cut off but dd is Y9.
Boys were at one end and girls at the other with a canvas drop separating the two, they were indoors too, but obviously activities were outside.
I don't see a problem tbh, they had separate changing facilities.
I do know that 6th formers were separated from the others as one poor girl slept on her own as was the only older girl.

But this isn't separate changing facilities this is having to not only pretend a boy is a girl bit having to change with them too.

That's not ok

And presumably in the situation gillybeanz describes, the parents knew what the situation was beforehand.

I know CanIBuffalo
I still get a shock of disbelief every time I hear / read that people fail to appreciate the risks. I suppose it's the sad extension of the 'a transgenderwoman is a woman #nodebate' .

We have spent so long building up schools, institutions to be cautious and wary and to prioritise children's safety after decades of terrible abuse (Saville, Bryn Estyn, Kincora, Islington Children's homes, Rochdale, churches, sport - football, swimming etc etc etc - much of which was 'in plain sight' ).
Suddenly all of that is thrown out of the widow following lobbying by a powerful group of (mainly) born white males and we are expected to change our laws, suspend our safeguarding practices and to passively accept risks to meet the wishes to be validated of this tiny group of people.

Boys were at one end and girls at the other with a canvas drop separating the two

Why did they have the canvas separating them?

I don't see a problem tbh, they had separate changing facilities.

Why did they have separate changing facilities?

There seems to be some deliberate ignoring the point going on fizzy. Not sure you will get an answer

I think it’s the casual disregard for teenage girls feelings which is upsetting.

Already they are learning that they come bottom of the list when it comes to protection .

MrsCastle the official advice to schools (Scotland recently released their updated version and it will be standardised) is that on trips there is no need to inform parents that a transgender child will be sleeping in the dormitory of and using the bathroom facilities of the sex they identify with.

In fact the implication is to tacitly discourage this as this will cause parents to kick off, which is seen as discrimination.

To add; a massive majority of children identifying as transgender at school age are girls. Wonder why so many girls are desperate not to have to grow up to be women in 2017 UK? The ration switches to the other extreme in adulthood with very few adult women transitioning and the majority being men, many who have no history of gender dysphoria in childhood. Interestingly, there is no huge wave of teenaged transboys demanding to be centred in boys resources and activities.

This is, like the 19 year old male women's officer for Labour who has insisted on being allowed into race for life and reclaim the night as women only spaces, about intentionally and deliberately locating and pressuring any and all organisation, facility, space or resource by women and for women, and claiming it as a transwomen space for political reasons.

The ridiculous thing is (which as I recall the DM article.doesn't address) is that the Equality Act is perfectly happy for males and females to be segregated (irregardless of how they identify / GRCs) in circumstances like changing rooms, or shared sleeping accomodation.

But the Guide guidelines, and the new Scottish guidelines are bizarrely ignoring all of this.

If I was a cynic, I might think that this a precursor to all sex segregation exceptions being removed from the Equalities act. After all surely it is transphobic to only accept someone's identified sex some of the time...