Can transwomen live as women?

[chocladoodle]

I've been reading about the council appointed women's officer and some of the responses got me thinking. Obviously biology means that transwomen can never truly experience the lived experience of women, neither than being conditioned as male throughout their childhood in anyway can compensate the privilege automatically bestowed on them.

In this example it is especially ludicrous as we are talking about a 19yr old, but what about older transwoman. Could they, are they ever going to be accepted as 'woman' without controversy. Is there ever a right time for them to be given 'womens' posts etc.

As women we all have different life experiences and different needs/priorities. Some are lesbian, some heterosexual, some married to men, some to women, some with children, some in full time successful careers, some care givers, some unable to work because of childcare, some disabled etc etc. We all have different takes on life, and I will always hold onto biology to define us as a class, but no one woman can speak for all us. A straight woman, married to an abusive male, struggling with 3 children under 5 has very different needs to a middle age butch lesbian, with no children and a successful career, for example. Neither of these women could truly understand the others way of life.

With that in mind, is appointing a 'woman's post' to a transwoman (not a 19 yr old) that controversial? Until today I would have always said yes, must be a female, I'm not as sure now. I'm hoping some of you who have a better knowledge could help me get my head round this.

Transwomen can sometimes pass as women, and live in a way that is very similar to the way some women do, but they can't live as women because they aren't women.

And they shouldn't take women's places, women's scholarships, women's anything else.

Counterpoint, you have completely misunderstood what it is to be trans if you think that trans women could just identify as 'effeminate gay men'...

Before making rude assumptions about trans women, it is important to actually speak to people who are trans. You might find that actually trans people of any or no gender are subject to similar types of violence as women. They certainly do not hold the privilege of cis men! Honestly, all it takes is to listen to trans people to realise that they might actually be very good at fighting for womens rights because they understand what it is so be subject to violence and oppression.

A trans woman, however well meaning, will never experience the myriad medical issues that affect women on a daily basis. They will have no experience of pregnancy, childbirth and the discrimination that goes alongside those things.

They will never experience the socialisation that leaves us with our voices spoken over, our concerns diminished and our needs not taken seriously.

They will never be expected to take on the bulk of wifework and childcare that keep their homes running. They will never experience that level of emotional labour while trying to juggle a job.

A trans woman may well make an excellent LGBT+ officer, but just cannot share enough experience with a biological woman to fully represent their interests at a political level.

Besides, what does living as a woman mean anyway? Without the lived socialisation and biological experience/oppression, it boils down to dressing on so called 'women's' clothes, having a feminine haircut and wearing make-up.

It seems to boil down to trying to appear as much like a feminine woman as possible in the hope that people believe you are one. Which is one thing, but does not in any way define what a woman is.

a) middle-aged butch lesbians might well have been in abusive het relationships in their 20s or 30s and therefore would have lived experience of this exact scenario
b)women have all experienced a girlhood with commonalities - not identical girlhoods but we all experience eg being treated as other or less-than in comparison to boys and men, we all grow up believing we may menstruate, be at risk of pregnancy, go through menopause etc.
I wouldn't wait in the toilets until someone exactly like me came along to ask for a sanitary towel - I would ask the first woman who came along because it's likely she would understand my situation.

I'm not 100% sure a trans person could make an excellent lgbtq officer as it's hard to occupy that position and truly represent gay men, lesbian women and trans people with even-handedness and objectivity. i'm not sure who could occupy such a position, though - would prefer an LGB officer and a gender issues officer or something.

Basically the idea of 'living as a woman' is so sexist and odd. I don't think I live as a woman using that definition. But I am one.

They will never experience the socialisation that leaves us with our voices spoken over, our concerns diminished and our needs not taken seriously.

I went to a remembrance service at the local Methodist church last night for trans people who have died this year, either through murder or through suicide. I think you will find the trans community very much understands what it is like to not be heard or listened to...

Of course a trans person cannot fight ‘better’ for women’s rights because they have known oppression (catholic convert v cradle catholic analogy mentioned above). To suggest they might be ‘better’ than a biological woman is really ridiculous - handing over to men once again the idea that we are inferior because of our biology. No thank you.

Salmon, I expect some maybe most trans people experience being not listened to.

I don’t understand your point. Why would that make them better fighters for women’s rights? You might as well say ‘let’s have a black man as woman’s officer - he knows what it’s like to face discrimination and prejudice.’

They certainly do not hold the privilege of cis men!

Well, they could. If they dressed as I do (jeans and a t-shirt), the vast majority of transwomen I've seen on the internet, or met in person, would look like any other bloke. Unlike me, who looks like a woman whether I want to or not (short and dumpy, it's impossible to hide my sex)

If someone looks like and presents themselves as a woman, how would a man know to NOT treat them with the same discrimination?

If you've been living for 30 years with people believing that you are a woman, and therefore have been experiencing the same prejudice, are you really still entirely unqualified to talk about issues women are facing?

I said they might be good at fighting for women's rights because men treat them in similar ways. I didn't say they would be better than women.

Actually read what I said before shooting off at me!

If someone looks like and presents themselves as a woman, how would a man know to NOT treat them with the same discrimination?

Ah, OK, so we're only talking about passing transwomen then, not all transwomen.

Obviously they won't have the experience common to many biological women of menstruating, giving birth, suffering medical problems related to their biology (e.g. endemetriosis, cervical cancer). Neither will they have the experience of going through childhood being told to be feminine and quiet and not speak out, as girls and teenage girls routinely are.

But I suppose if you live for several years as a woman then you will have the typical adult female experience of being patronised, belittled, harassed etc in the way adult women often are. In her autobiography Jan Morris talks about how once she was a "woman", men assumed she was an idiot. Here's the quote:

"The more I was treated as a woman, the more woman I became. I adapted willy-nilly. If I was assumed to be incompetent at reversing cars, or opening bottles, oddly incompetent I found myself becoming. If a case was thought too heavy for me, inexplicably I found it so myself."

It would appear that the answer is no, a transwomen can never be truly accepted as being a woman, be it job posts/positions etc.

This makes it all the more alarming that the GRA is actually aiming to make it easier to reassign a persons gender. If women, 50% of the population already, now, do not accept that transwomen can live as women, then why is the law changing.

I think you will find the trans community very much understands what it is like to not be heard or listened to...

Therefore I would expect them to understand that many women are concerned about the proposals for self-identification, the rewriting of the English language (non-men, pregnant people etc), the giving up of safe spaces, the gate-crashing of women's sports, the use of the offensive term 'cis' etc.

But apparently it doesn't work that way.

Hackmum. Yes that's exactly what I mean. Nice quote, never heard that before.

Salmon I did read your post. I asked you what your point was, because I did not understand you. I was not ‘sounding off’ at you. You said trans people may well know what it’s like to experience discrimination. I agree. But so what??? I still don’t get what point you are making. I inferred from your post that you reckoned they’d be good at fighting for women’s rights as a result. As good as women, you now explain, not ‘better’. You’re still wrong, if that’s your point! Mine is they should not be permitted to apply for women’s posts. I suppose you think they should be, purely on the grounds they may well have experienced discrimination. Is that your point?

Hackmum there is a trans scientist who fairly easily passes as a woman (as Jan Morris does). This scientist says life in research and the lab is now different and more difficult .

It’s still not the same experience as being female from birth though. And very few trans m to f ‘pass’.

Transwomen cannot represent women because, as an ideology, it’s sexist at best and misogynistic at worst.

I feel threatened as a woman by the reproductive violence and disregard aimed at women of childbearing age. I am not of that age, but still feel that as the threat and terrorising of our group. I don’t see why or how trans women should feel threatened by the nature of the violence against women when they’re not part of that group. It isn’t really about individual experiences when the psychological impacts is about threatening women not just because of their sex but through their sex. It simply isn’t possible to terrorise trans women as a group through the same means, so why should they have the same level of fear or solidarity?

They will never experience the socialisation that leaves us with our voices spoken over, our concerns diminished and our needs not taken seriously.

In about 15-20 years there are going to be thousands of people who have been brought up and socialised in a way that doesn't reflect their biology.

If we all think this situation is impossible now can you imagine what it will be like in years to come.

We actually don’t know that trans males and females are not being socialised based on their biology.

It won’t surprise me at all if it turns out trans men (females) have been treated really badly by the medical profession etc than trans women (males) have been.

For example, trans men still have all the same crap around contraception, being female.

OP wrote - "it is especially ludicrous as we are talking about a 19yr old, but what about older transwoman."

The 19 year old (Lily Madigan) had 18 years of male/masculine socialisation and started transition 1 year before becoming the Women's Officer for a constituency branch of the Labour Party.

Compare that to 68-year-old Caitlyn Jenner, who had 65 years of male/masculine socialisation and started transition 6 months before being awarded "Woman of the Year" by Glamour magazine in 2015. (The award was given to Jenner only 5 weeks after the name change to Caitlyn).

I think that any transgender-identifying male person's age or length of time since start of transition or amount of body alteration or ability to perform femininity should not make any difference to how allowable it should be for the person to be regarded as a girl or woman instead of a boy or man.

Both young and old transgender-identifying male people have never been girls (female children) and can never be women (female adults), regardless of how much the transgender-identifying male person's wishes may be indulged by a government changing the word "male" to the word "female" on official documents.

(It is often convenient for goverments to give "legal personality" to companies or organsations, as if they were people for some legal purposes, but that does not magically turn a company into a woman.)