Lily Madigan, TIM, elected Labour women's officer

[jMillicentFawcett]

Lily is 19. Lily was instrumental in the hate campaign against Anne Ruzylo which resulted in her standing down.

You have to be a woman to be women’s officer but ‘The Labour councillor said that “lived experience as a woman” should be considered an advantage — but not a prerequisite — for the role of women’s officer.’

Lily could also have gone for the LGBT officer role but they didn’t want that. No, they wanted to show women that they can shit all over them and we will applaud them for doing it.

I’m absolutely furious about this ( as you can probably tell)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-teenager-lily-madigan-voted-in-as-a-labour-women-s-officer-mwchkhzq8?shareToken=472df23aa6315582a4f6558d7a1be5ba

Wouldn’t it be lovely if it were that simple? I wish it were, but it really isn’t.

I don't think there is anyone 'born into the wrong body'. You're a person, you have a body, you do stuff with it, and your looks and abilities are an accident of your genes combined with your life history.

I can, I suppose, see that religious people have a sense of a soul that enters the body at some point from outside. I don't.

'Imagine a world where it was accepted that how a person looked on the outside did not represent who they are inside' -- yes, sure. I'd like to see that sort of world.

Imagine if we had less a less gendered society - then the whole “feel like a woman” or “feel like a man” wouldn’t exist. That way people wouldn’t confuse their feelings about themselves as a person with their biological sex.

50 years ago you wouldn’t have been happy to have a lesbian representing your interests.

What on Earth gives you that idea?

that how that person looked on the outside did not represent who they are inside? Imagine we lived in a kind and tolerant society that recognised that as a fact. If we did, that would make Lily a woman not a man.

But woman has a specific meaning, which is adult human female. Which Lily will never be. Lily is a teenage boy. represnting women. Lily has already made it clear that he does not believe in biology, and also is wanting to represent the needs of 'transwomen' (ie males) rather than women. lily also delights in pushing womens boundaries. Wrong choice. And fuck all to do with homosexuality

Whatsitallabout70
Why are you conflating homophobia / hatred of lesbians with this?
I can imagine that it must be so stressful to be the parent of a gender non conforming child and genuinely hope that your child has reached a happy and contented place.

Unfortunately, those of us who are concerned about children's wellbeing and safety are very concerned at the aggressive tactics of activists and the deliberate stripping away of parent's ability to support their child by the same activists.

Thinking of parallels - we have changed the way disability is seen. It used to be, You are disabled, we will try to fix your body so you fit into the able-bodied world. Now the social model of disability says, You are disabled, the world is constructed for able-bodied people which is what disables you. We will adapt the world to meet your needs. I would like to hear from disability activists if they have any opinions on this.

50 years ago you wouldn’t have been happy to have a lesbian representing your interests. Hopefully it won’t be 50 years before trans women are seen as real women too.

What is your definition of woman. Without referring to biology, which obviously would not include transwomen. And also a non-circular definition, as 'anyone who feels like a woman' is not an answer. There needs to be a meaning of 'woman' for anyone to 'feel like' one

It is that simple.

Whatsit, I suspect this is the sort of debate that is going to leave you feeling angry, hurt and your family's anguish not understood.

Deflection Lancelotte

I really hate how those not believing males are women are made out to be homophobic tbh. Or even similar to homophobes. gay people wanted to be accepted for who they are. Trans people want to be accepted as something they are not. male and female have meanings and oddly enough, different needs being different sexes.

Body dysphoria- I don’t know. I was anorexic growing up. I still struggle to carry any fat and feel comfortable with myself. Is the answer to suggest I should starve or that I need help to accept that my adult female body carries weight on my thighs and hips, if I don’t starve myself.
I am an 8 now, I think I am fat. Do people indulge that, or tell me that I am not?
I hate being fat. I hate not having clothes hang off me so that I know I am thin. I hate the way my body feels. But I am not getting surgeons to give me liposuction on the NHS.

I am not meaning to trivialise whats but I don’t understand how you can be born in the wrong body. You are born in your body. Who decrees it wrong??

I question how a 19 year old could possibly be suitable and qualified for the role. I thought was pretty savvy about the layers of injustice and disadvantage that people experienced, but it wasn't until my mid-twenties when I started working in the NHS and saw abject misery and suffering.

But diversity policy doesn't seek increase minority participation because those groups bring a unique essence (much as the trans activists would like you to think of their Authentic.True.Experience). It's about getting a seat at the table.

Women's officers/other similar roles of women-centric advocacy, are not entirely held by women just because of safety/potential shared experience, but to fulfil the broader remit of diversity. These roles exist because the structure of society disadvantages women. If there is a role to advocate for women and remedy the problems they experience, then it should be a woman performing that role, increasing the opportunity for women to be in positions of power.

50 years ago homosexuals were reviled and abused... We have moved on from such loathing today.

If only it were that simple. It's not about being nice and tolerant.

Many of the trans rights activists are NOT kind or tolerant to gay women. Lesbians get gaslit and harrassed by TRAs for daring to be - Lesbians. If a Lesbian says she only wants to sleep with women (natal born women) there are plenty of TRAs out there queuing up to hell her how she should have sex with people with penises or be labelled a bigot.

That sounds like sex by coersion to me, and there's a word for that.

Some examples:

Deliberate deflection, you reckon, Flavia? I read it as genuine (speaking from experience of similar parental hurt rage when things were tearing our family in pieces). There comes a point when you have to stop raging at other people for not understanding/not agreeing, or you go under.

Or maybe you meant I'm deflecting? If so I'll bugger off for a bit and pokes some roast potatoes.

I would have zero problem with a lesbian representing me. Frankly there are areas where I would find it very useful. The fact that they are not in the slightest bit interested in the male gaze or accommodating men, makes them incredibly focused solely on women’s issues.

Whatsitallabout70

I can’t imagine how difficult it must be to have a child who is trans. Genuinely. All the more so if you are not gender critical yourself.

I don’t suppose there is a parent here who hasn’t occasionally gone against their principles for the sake of accommodating or supporting their children. When you love your kids, that profound feeling of wanting the best for them, can sometimes make you drop everything else to that end.

And I, personally, don’t judge you for that.

I have spoken to, and read narratives of, parents who have children who are trans. If that parent is gender critical, it can set up a conflict that is difficult to deal with.

If they are not gender critical it can feel like the whole world doesn’t understand. Your personal journey is yours and yours alone. I get it.

All I would like you to understand is that if the feminists here had their way, your child would not have had to have come out as trans.

Gender dysphoria is a reaction to society’s relentless demand of expected gender roles.

If you dismantle gender, you dismantle their reaction to it.

Have you visited the website transgendertrend? It was set up by Stephanie Davis Arai.

She became incredibly concerned about how many youngsters were wanting to identify as the opposite sex. She is only all about the children. She is kind, gentle and very well-informed.

I profoundly disagree with the ideology. Not least because I have tremendous compassion for parents such as you.

I understand that there is a desire to be seen as crusaders protecting vulnerable children from the malign influence of adults who enable and encourage said children in their delusions and that all these kids really need is a good talking to and everything will be ok. As a parent of one of these children I can assure that nothing is that simple. No parent would wish this life for their child, but the best thing a parent can do is love and support their child unconditionally. If just telling my child to get over it was the best solution and they would instantly stop identifying a trans and go back to identifying as their birth gender, I would do it in heart beat. But that won’t work.

No, not you Lancelottie!

I meant that it's easier or throw the you're all bigots who'd be oppressing lesbians 50yrs ago accusation about than to defend why you think a 19yr old boy is equipped to fulfill a womens officer role.

Have you had a look at 4th Wave Now, whatis? It's set up by parents in exactly your position. There is more than one way to approach the issue, and there are a lot of wise people there who can help you.

I don't think it is simple when it comes to dysphoric, gender non conforming or trans children. I think it's incredibly complex - and it's for that reason that I disagree with reducing it to the pink brain/blue brain level of what a girl is, or what a boy is.

I don't think it's that simple whatsitallabout. Actually I think it's that simple in many cases of gender dysphoria in that there has been a massive rise in girls presenting at clinics saying they want to be male. Many of these girls will have been swayed by adults with an agenda or their friends or YouTubers. 80% of these kids will go on to be completely happy in their bodies and it's these kids who really deserve protection

But absolutely there will be a core of children who are deeply conflicted and their feelings won't ease and they deserve help and support. I am completely comfortable with the idea of some people transitioning in whatever form they choose, once they're adults and have spent time working on the issue. There are other conditions which also provoke huge distress including ones where people believe a limb doesn't belong to them. In an extreme case I can see it might alleviate suffering to just have the limb removed. This issue isn't black and white.

Surely though you can see this issue isn't straightforward and that men are hijacking this debate to intimidate women and gain more access to them? It's so blindingly obvious what with all the 'suck my lady cock' and 'all TERF's should die' on twitter.

Whatsitallabout70 - I wish your child all the best. It is tough being a GNC adult in a patriarchal society and even tougher being a GNC child trying to grow up in one. I would only ask you to consider that the transactivist perspective isn't the only one out there and that perhaps the biggest service you could do your child is to be aware of other perspectives and possibilities, so that you can support them as they develop and not end up locked into one way of looking at things.

Nobody at Transgender Trend or 4th Wave Now is hateful and these websites may just provide you with critical insights one day in the future. Perhaps they won't, but no harm could possibly be done by informing yourself in advance.

The 80 percent change their minds statistic has been discredited. We are seeing the Tavistock now and their own figure is 25 percent and there are numerous reasons why that might be. There are no valuable long term studies yet and that is currently being addressed. But if, as a society, we accepted that there was no shame in being trans and it was acceptable a way of expressing your humanity as any other, would that be so bad? Trans people are still a vanishingly small percentage of society. I have to assume that the majority of people commenting here do not have an immediate family member who identifies that way, that’s how rare it is.

But if, as a society, we accepted that there was no shame in being trans and it was acceptable a way of expressing your humanity as any other

I do accept that - if an adult wants to have cosmetic surgery, take hormones, if they're sure that therapy isn't going to help them any more than it already has, then sure, off you go, do that.

Humans can't change sex though, and a 19 year old boy has no experience of what it is like to be a women.