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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lily Madigan, TIM, elected Labour women's officer

999 replies

jMillicentFawcett · 20/11/2017 05:17

Lily is 19. Lily was instrumental in the hate campaign against Anne Ruzylo which resulted in her standing down.

You have to be a woman to be women’s officer but ‘The Labour councillor said that “lived experience as a woman” should be considered an advantage — but not a prerequisite — for the role of women’s officer.’

Lily could also have gone for the LGBT officer role but they didn’t want that. No, they wanted to show women that they can shit all over them and we will applaud them for doing it.

I’m absolutely furious about this ( as you can probably tell)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-teenager-lily-madigan-voted-in-as-a-labour-women-s-officer-mwchkhzq8?shareToken=472df23aa6315582a4f6558d7a1be5ba

OP posts:
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24
Datun · 24/11/2017 18:54

MissMoneyPlant

The reason why the issue of trans suicide is considered manipulative is because it is no higher amongst that cohort than other minority cohorts.

It also is not necessarily because they are trans. Trans people almost always have comorbid issues.

The way the statistics are presented is highly manipulative. The slides that you see being reproduced implied the study was done from group of 2000 people. But when you access the actual study it was 27 people.

So there is a feeling that saying ‘better a live daughter then a dead son’, is disingenuous at best.

The other worry is that the Samaritans’ advice is to not promote or talk about suicide, as it leads to contagion. Transactivists and trans pressure groups go directly against this advice and use it as a means of enforcing compliance.

So you are left with the feeling that you are being manipulated on several levels and of course have to ask yourself the question why?

It’s a very uncomfortable position to be in. Who wants to question suicide statistics in teenagers? It comes across as a deliberate attempt to minimise. When it is actually nothing of the sort.

It’s an attempt to separate the marketing of the damage from the actual damage.

pisacake · 24/11/2017 19:34

Here's an article on how transgender people have not only redefined women but also suicide.

www.smh.com.au/comment/how-queers-and-refugees-changed-the-politics-of-suicide-and-selfharm-20171122-gzqy74

"Watson cited a recent survey by research institute Telethon Kids of almost 1000 transgender people aged 14-25, which found almost 50 per cent had tried to kill themselves, 74 per cent were clinically diagnosed with depression and 80 per cent had harmed themselves."

"For advocates of issues like marriage equality and programs like Safe Schools, such figures point to the urgency and gravity of their struggle: it is not just about identity and recognition, but a matter of life and death.

The use and acceptance of such statistics reflects a changing perception of suicide and self-harm that is based on three premises.

First, each of us has an intrinsic and autonomous idea of ourselves. As Lady Gaga asserts: "Oh there ain't no other way. Baby I was born this way.""

"They rebuff the idea that self-harm and suicide denies or desecrates some divine gift. Instead, such acts are legitimate, albeit regrettable, ways of relieving or escaping worldly exclusion and persecution. Suicide is not a sign of personal wrongdoing or weakness. Indeed, it may well be society that is at fault."

In other words, if you don't do whatever they say you are literally a murderer and should be in prison. Or raped. Or whatever punishment they deem appropriate for 'cuntscum'

SophoclesTheFox · 24/11/2017 19:52

I have a couple of issues with the "better a live daughter than a dead son" narrative around suicide. Well, I have lots, but the two that occur to me reading this thread are:

The lack of analysis of which is the chicken and the egg in this scenario - are trans people more prone to depression, self harm and suicide, or are people who are prone to depression, self harm and suicide more likely to suffer a feeling of discontent with their gender/gender identity/gender expression? We just have no idea (though I do have a theory). Then there's the second issue:

We have very little evidence to prove one way or another if the affirmative approach to trans issues ameliorates the depression, suicide and self harm. And we're in no imminent danger of getting that evidence in a climate where professionals may not even ask that question (see memorandum of understanding).

For my 2p worth, we have some terrible issues around mental ill health in Western society, and I'm not the least bit surprised that people in significant distress are finding answers in transactivism - it's the logical result of late stage neo-liberal capitalism, with a hefty undercurrent of backlash against women and misogyny. There was a thread on here the other day describing the perfect storm that we're in.

But the answer is not uncritical affirmation of an erroneous belief. That won't do.

YoloSwaggins · 24/11/2017 23:59

A sane society would be advocating for robust, ameliorative psychological therapy to steer transgender people away from their delusions. Instead, we indulge this sickness on an industrial scale,

But isn't this what people used to say about gay people? That it's a mental illness that has to be cured and not "indulged"? Which is obviously incredibly homophobic and untrue.

So I'm not really comfortable with that being said about trans people....in what way is it different?

Battleax · 25/11/2017 00:46

In what way is it the same?

Saying you fancy whoever is just that, a statement of who you're attracted to.

Saying that you're a different race, sexy or species, to that which you clearly are is an assertion at variance with fact.

Battleax · 25/11/2017 00:47

Sex. Not "sexy" 🙄

Battleax · 25/11/2017 00:52

Besides which, most people are perfectly happy for anyone to live as the opposite sex if they wish, for gender recognition certificates to be easily obtainable with medical evidence etc.

It's only a) self certification and b) being asked to believe in the literal truth of impossible things, that have caused difficulties.

OlennasWimple · 25/11/2017 02:10

Sophocles - one thing that jumps out at my from the Williams Institute study on attempted suicide is that " respondents who said they had received transition related health care or wanted to have it someday were
more likely to report having attempted suicide than those
who said they did not want it"

Ie those people who pursue physical transition related intervention were NOT less likely to consider suicide than those who did not pursue this route

Sentimentallentil · 25/11/2017 03:20

It’s different because gay people to be gay they don’t need everyone else to indulge in anything or to give up any rights. If someone is gay then it makes literally no difference to anyone else, they just sleep with whoever they like and everyone gets on with their lives, jobs a good ‘un.
Gay people didn’t ask to redifine the English language.
Also if someone’s gay they don’t need to have incredibly invasive medical procedures or take mega doses of hormones for the rest or their lives.

Also sex dysphoria IS a mental illness, it’s an illness that causes intense distress and which the symptoms of which can be treated through medical procedures and/or therapy.
No one is saying a man wearing a dress is an illness or wanting to go against societies perceived gender norms is an illness, or even going the full hog and living as completely within what their idea of a woman is an illness, but sex dysphoria is.

This bait and switch style of argument seems to be pretty popular in the trans debate where people say a statement that’s true for one group of people and then just replace the word with trans even though it’s not the same issue.

Sentimentallentil · 25/11/2017 04:40

^Besides which, most people are perfectly happy for anyone to live as the opposite sex if they wish, for gender recognition certificates to be easily obtainable with medical evidence etc.

It's only a) self certification and b) being asked to believe in the literal truth of impossible things, that have caused difficulties.^

This.

And I hope it gets sorted soon so the focus can be on making sure that trans people are more accepted, that they get good access to healthcare and aren’t discriminated at work.
I would fight tooth and nail for this, I have so much sympathy for trans people and I think that it must be awful to have dysphoria, and rigid gender rules are shit for everyone.
A small group of trans activists have hijacked the whole debate, they’ve changed the terms and pushed it to the point where it’s become impossible to stand with them.
There’s nothing wrong with being trans, it’s not shameful or something to hide, we should be fighting for acceptance of trans people as they are not saying that they literally change sex or have always been the opposite sex. Instead of appropriating other peoples experiences we should be celebrating trans.
Unfortunately by saying that though I am comitting literal violence.

AskBasil · 25/11/2017 05:02

Has anyone got a copy of the original study of 27 teenagers on which the transborg base all their lies about suicide statistics?

Sentimentallentil · 25/11/2017 05:04

Is it lies though because that Williams institute study was of over 5000 respondents.

Datun · 25/11/2017 07:52

AskBasil

Here is an analysis of the study.

(I haven’t re-read the link but I’m confident they have a link to the original study. If they don’t, it is Googleable. FairPlay for women are fairly rigorous with their original data.)

fairplayforwomen.com/mermaids-tg-lying-unprofessional

Datun · 25/11/2017 08:31

But isn't this what people used to say about gay people? That it's a mental illness that has to be cured and not "indulged"? Which is obviously incredibly homophobic and untrue.

YoloSwaggins this is an argument that you hear a lot.

You have to remember that you were talking about an ideology here. This is what has started all the problem.

It was a masterstroke to get to the T added to LGB. When it is an identity problem, not a sexual orientation.

Of course it’s true that gay people were resisted. Progress was made, debate was had. They didn’t threaten heterosexual people with violence or rape threats. They didn’t ask for heterosexual people to redefine who they are. And concede rights.

Just because it sounds like it might be the same, as it has certain familiar parts to it, doesn’t mean it is. And it’s manipulative to co-opt other peoples struggles, point out the similarities, and say they are the same.

They do it with race (don’t ask me to explain that one, cos I don’t get it). They do it with sex. They claim because they get targeted for being trans it’s the same as being targeted for being a woman, ergo they are like women.

But the most glaring difference is that transgenderism actually erases homosexuality.

The claim that your sex is determined by your brain, not your body is at the root of it.

A certain cohort claim they are actually women by dint of how they think. An inner ‘female’ identity and essence.

This cohort are what we would call heterosexual, they are attracted to women. They don’t want straight women because straight women don’t sleep with women - and that will invalidate their female identity.

So they go after lesbians. If lesbians do not include men with penises, who think they are women, in their dating pool, then they are transphobic bigots. See lady dick, girl dick and the penis is a female organ. Also the cotton ceiling. A play on the glass ceiling a and representation of women’s knickers. Something to be ‘broken through’.

And Riley J Dennis YouTube videos where he accuses lesbians of having ‘prejudicial’ dating preferences.

And it’s not fringe. I can promise you. Michfest, a woman only festival held for 40 years was eventually shut down by transactivists who accused them of excluding men. (They had, in fact, included transwomen for years. But not the type who demanded to sleep with lesbians).

The trans ideology insists that one should be attracted to gender, not sex. Which effectively not only eliminates homosexuality, but heterosexuality too.

So me, a straight woman, should include a woman with a vagina in my dating pool, as long as she identifies as a man.

Lesbians who refuse are called vagina fetishists. Ostracised and told to work through their prejudice.

Go onto any lesbian site (if you can find one now) and you will hear lesbians bitterly complaining about how every single lesbian venue, cafe, club is now overrun with entitled men demanding sex as ‘trans lesbians’. Lesbians have been renamed as cisbians.

A lesbian is a woman who is attracted to another woman. They have been rebranded as cisbians to make a distinction between them and men who are attracted to women, called transbians.

Funny enough, on dating websites transwomen they often say in their profile ‘no trans’. Because they, me and everyone else knows that they are actually straight men. Otherwise they would date each other.

It’s interesting, too, that gay men are not being targeted. I can’t imagine a transman with a vagina getting very far pressuring a gay man for sex. Not that they do. Funnily enough.

The inherent power dynamic between men and women and men’s entitlement to sex rips right through the ideology’s logic as far as the eye can see.

Ignoring it is one of their biggest tactics.

Make no mistake, this is a men’s rights movement. It has nothing to do with gay rights. Do not be fooled into thinking it does.

AskBasil · 25/11/2017 08:32

Thanks Datun

NotAgainYoda · 25/11/2017 08:39

Datun, I love your posts.

Datun · 25/11/2017 08:53

It was a bit long! But only because I want people to get it.

Sometimes, to save time, I speak into the microphone on my phone to write a comment.

I was on the train a few days ago, and pressed post. Then looked up to see three people eyeballing me with horror.

(I’ve decided they were impressed with my erudition, and not appalled by me saying ‘a neovagina is not an actual vagina’.)

NotAgainYoda · 25/11/2017 08:54
Grin
norahnamechange · 25/11/2017 09:03

Yet again, the Times has a gender critical article - and this time about 'Lily' and the Jo Cox award.
It's also interviewed two transgender women who both get the issue about those born and socialised as male taking places from women. Here:
www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/trans-teenager-lily-madigan-applies-for-jo-cox-women-s-leadership-scheme-78vs7r2pj

Apologies that it's behind the paywall - I can't work out how to share these articles.

Datun · 25/11/2017 09:10

Great article.

And this from a transwoman. Surely they can’t keep ignoring the very people they are talking about.

Trans women also urged the party to rethink its decision. Kristina Harrison, 52, a paramedic who was born male but transitioned 20 years ago, said that if the party really wanted to boost transgender representation, “the spaces and mechanisms really should be taken from men. They shouldn’t be taken from a fellow discriminated group. Yes, we need our own positive discrimination but it shouldn’t be done at the expense of women.”

AlternativeTentacle · 25/11/2017 09:12

men who are attracted to women, called transbians

It is so fucking insane.

MillicentFawcett · 25/11/2017 09:15

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-teenager-lily-madigan-applies-for-jo-cox-women-s-leadership-scheme-78vs7r2pj?shareToken=6ea7bc43791306a876d647e875072001
Share token for the article. I have a sub to the Times now. My father would be delighted

Datun · 25/11/2017 09:21

It is so fucking insane.

It’s also as old as the hills. Men are always saying to lesbians I’m actually a male lesbian.

How many men think all lesbians need is a good dicking, and then they won’t be lesbian anymore?

Many men find it utterly incomprehensible that sex may not involve a penis.

There is a YouTube film of a woman interviewing men asking whether or not their most recent partner had had an orgasm during sex. Most of them said I don’t know, maybe, not sure, I think so, etc.

She said if you don’t know, how do you know when the sex is finished?

To a man they said, well after I come (the silent dur was deafening).

And yet, women, not men, have an organ that is designated for pleasure only. Nothing to do with reproduction.

Funny that.

iseenodust · 25/11/2017 09:51

Datun I hope you got off the train first so they could HmmHmm at your receding back. Grin

Ekphrasis · 25/11/2017 09:54

Thanks for the share millicent. Kristina Harrison seems very sensible.

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