I don't want to be a TERF

[PullUpTheTERF]

Please help.

I've NC'd for this because, well, obviously. I assure you I am a regular poster on many forums on MN, including Feminism.

Bit of back story; I am a loud and proud leftie feminist, massively pro gay rights, I am known in my circle of friends (I've been told) as being a champion for minorities, I've been to 12 gay prides and counting.

Being on this forum (since way back when it was FWR) has exposed me to gender criticism and TERF idealogies.

And I wish it hadn't.

I find myself agreeing with some (please note - not all) posters who have explained the, seemingly many, issues with the trans movement.

I'll nod along to certain comments and then hate myself for doing so.

I feel like I could never say any of this in public.

I really don't want to start a bun fight.

I'd really like to hear from some pro trans people specifically with some counter arguments.

I worry about going against gender stereotypes being labelled and parcelled as Trans.
My DS wanted a pink phone and my DMIL said he might want to transition when he's older. It infuriated me.
The thought of children having medical interventions really concerns me. I worry that someone can just say what they are and then they are that (but this doesn't extend to race, just sex)
I worry about female prisons and women only spaces being encroached. Can't believe I just said the word encroached.

But then I hear 'Being my true self' and 'Cis genders don't understand' and 'trapped in the wrong body's stuff and I feel awful.

I know if some of my friends knew about this they'd probably think I was a bigot.

I don't want to have these opinions anymore.
It puts me in the same camp as Trump FFS.

I hope this post is taken in the light it is intended.

And I do use the label TERF because I've got none other to use. And I am a feminist, I'm not gay, I'm not trans*, and I'm not a man.

You think it's acceptable to use the term TERF and yet still reckon you're a feminist and a moderate on the debate? Wowsers.

rather than just ignoring me and taking his word for it friends asked wtf had actually happened, and it turned out that they all agreed that the 'ladypenis' concept was just silly, and even to this day they will bring it up and tell him how fucking ridiculous his opinions are on the matter and that he is the most homophobic gay person they know by a mile.

That cheers me up

Me too

Just because you label yourself in a certain way, that doesn't mean you aren't allowed to think with nuance and with critical insight that may not agree with what you think your self-labellimg thinks you 'should' think.

The trans issues are huge and complex. Give yourself a break. Ditch your labels, they will free your mind.

And that came out more convoluted than it should have. Sleep deprivation

BatShite and that just shows the hatred towards women. One rule for men, one for women. The double standard stinks.

Actually seen a couple of gay men (not all of course) throw lesbians under the TRA bus calling them bigots and transphobic yet when I've challenged them if they would date a TIF I get blocked.

Never understood this. Why don’t they just lie?

Although, I’m fast concluding that they genuinely see a difference between lesbian accepting penis and a gay man accepting vagina.

Because otherwise it would just be all too easy to say, yes of course I would dur, but then never go on to do it.

Not really relevant, but I found your use of language unpleasantly stereotypical, BatShite. Talking about gay men squealing and stropping is really not cool.

Although I absolutely agree with the point you made.

I didn't find it that bothersome, because I know exactly what she means about the odd, juvenile overreaction some gay men have at the mention of vagina - squealing is something I've witnessed - and i find it quite offensive for someone to display such open disgust at women's bodies (including mine) - especially when there are actually women there!

I understand it (thinking or acknowledging the existence of women's vaginas) is extremely complicated for some gay men, but the un-analysed hypocrisy and misogyny going on does come across like an irrational teenager 'strop' when you witness it- which has at time left me dumbfounded before..

Perhaps I can't see the gay stereotype because I see people refer to their kids, husbands, etc as 'having a strop' which to me suggests childishness rather than 'gay man'. .. but then again I might not be receiving the words the way most people do.

IMO the genital hypocrisy thing is all about male entitlement.

Males, for some reason feel entitled to have their penises serviced by other people, hence the global sex industry, etc. I just cannot empathise with it. I simply do not feel entitled to be sexually serviced by someone else, I can't imagine what it would be like to have that expectation men have- to be walking around with a sense of entitlement between my legs.

I think that is part of what weirds gay men out about transmen - it is the oxymoron of an 'entitled vagina'... which in reality could never exist because the vagina of a transman belongs to someone who was raised female so it could never be entitled.

Many gay men in my experience were always puzzled by how lesbians have sex without a penis or a penis substitute. I know they know intellectually but i think emotionally sex equals penis. so caitlyn and surprise penis equals more sex. whereas tif is just nothing there to play with does not compute. just the same ole a penis is a penis is a penis and a dildo almost as good but a hole is just a hole.................

The Sokal hoax was very funny and good for revealing pomo BS.

I can also recommend Unpacking Queer Politics by Sheila Jeffreys.

Interesting point SomeDyke

Pencils that hoax is hilarious!!

And Unpacking Queer Politics is so much the opposite in the clarity of the writing style - simply examining the evidence in plain language.

Although it wasn't supposed to be funny in UQP it did make me laugh out loud when Jeffreys speaks about the nuanced forms of 'phobia' that supposedly exposed bigotry... concluding with 'leatherman phobia'... ha ha - the irony of having a personal style that deliberatly provokes darkest fears of Nazi-like, sadistic male domination - then to accuse people of being 'phobic' for being scared of the leatherman... you can't fucking win!

Absolutely Human. I love the idea of putting scare quotes on the word "reality".... ha ha ha

He actually did squeal. He is the most camp person I know. Infact thinking about it he is the only gay guy I know who is really camp. He also did strop. Not sure why I should change what actually happened just because he is a very stereotypical gay guy

I didn't find it that bothersome, because I know exactly what she means about the odd, juvenile overreaction some gay men have at the mention of vagina - squealing is something I've witnessed - and i find it quite offensive for someone to display such open disgust at women's bodies (including mine) - especially when there are actually women there!

Yes, I have witnessed a fair few conversations about vaginas between gay and straight men. Its actually quite funny at times but yes, its bizarre quite how disgusting some gay men say they find vaginas. You would think they were discussing a steaming pile of dog shit sometimes rather than just a body part

Fair enough. I have known gay men react in an offensive way to the idea of women's genitals too. I withdraw my comments!

I suggested to some pomo posters on Twitter that they hop over to Netflix and watch the documentaries on North Korea, and they blocked me.
They know exactly what they are doing. Its confusion as a political weapon, as a form of population control.

Many gay men in my experience were always puzzled by how lesbians have sex without a penis or a penis substitute. I know they know intellectually but i think emotionally sex equals penis. so caitlyn and surprise penis equals more sex. whereas tif is just nothing there to play with does not compute. just the same ole a penis is a penis is a penis and a dildo almost as good but a hole is just a hole.................

I don't think thats just gay men, I think its men in general, and some women actually. The amount of times I have heard 'well lesbians use dildos, why don't they just use the real thing as they clearly want a dick' and stuff like that, its really vile. Almost like being a lesbian is wrong. Which I guess to many men, it is as they do not want a penis. Also a dildo is very different to a bloody penis anyway. I don;t really get into discussing sex lives with people, but I do know one lesbian couple who tell all regularly and they do not use dildos, which has people even more puzzled, then come the questions of 'so how do you have sex' as if you cannot have sex without a penis or something resembling a penis

they blocked me. They know exactly what they are doing. Its confusion as a political weapon, as a form of population control.

I know this is going off topic somewhat - but I have noticed this bullshit in other spheres than transgenderism... A lot of people are buying into a Russell Brand-style mysticism - which untethers reality.
I know it comes and goes - like in the 1990s there was a big New Age explosion, but this latest internet social media version seems to be a bit more politically dangerous - setting the scene for a US president to talk about 'alternative facts'.

this penis centric world does my head in.

setting the scene for a US president to talk about 'alternative facts'

and celebrities pushing new agey stuff and frankly dangerous ideas.

'holistic Vaccination', cancer 'cures', diet myths, even some celebs pushing MLM crap with all the lies that go hand in hand with that.

I notice anyone with a blue tick tends to be believed more than people who are academics and DRs or experts in their fields.

Just have to see the storm that infowars/brietbart chap caused over roman Britain stuff and lots of academics corrected him but he persisted that they were wrong despite decades of academic research on the topic.

Its happening with a lot of areas. TRAs using new agey, poorly interpreted research studies to back up their ideas of gendered brains. (brains are sexed in that each cell is typically either XX or XY). One I saw was using brain mass/size to prove transwomen had female brains and thus were women. This is the same 'logic' the nazis used or the use of head size and shape in the 1800s to predict criminality.

Noone wants to be a 'TERF'

But the choice is being called a TERF or knowing that you are a liar.

I am not a liar