Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

He says I can't expect him to be as good as me.

Why can't you? They're just choosing to be inadequate.

Oh Nemo. Four kids, a basically full time stressful job ( I'm guessing NHS? ) and a husband who thinks he's taking time off "for you.."
In all honesty I think I would have reached a tipping point by now, divorced him and used the maintenence to hire a nanny. Think how much easier your life would be!

You know what I was thinking?
It's a small thing, but laundry. With every man I have lived with, he has done his own laundry, I have gone mine..but the sheets and towels? Always me. Changing the beds, changing the bathroom towels. The thing is, I know a man is gonna come on here in on here and say " Men have lower standards -they care less about that stuff"
But nobody HATES clean towels do they? Even the stinkiest cave man doesn't really want his small child wiping their face on a towel that has never been washed?

"But he genuinely thinks he is doing loads..... Actually says "I couldn't physically do anymore"...."

You see this is the thing - it is hard work doing everything to do with a house and children and a job, and they really feel like it is too much to expect them to be run ragged and have next to no down time. they don't get that it is too much for us too.

Men don't judge how much they're going to do, by what there is to be done. (I have noticed this at work too, I'm not just talking about domestic stuff.) They judge it against their capacity, their health and well being and what would be reasonable to ask of a person, in their opinion.

this is why I get so enraged at the notion that men are objective and women are subjective. "It's too much for me to do and be happy" is an entirely subjective position that men take all the time. "It's got to be done for a whole ton of external reasons so I'm going to do it" is an objective position that women take all the time.

I’m sitting here stressing but trying not to do anything. We have friends coming over later and the dishes need doing and the house needs a hoover and a mop. DH is faffing around on the computer. I’m trying to relax and drink my coffee as I’m not planning on lifting a finger until he does. Why should I be cleaning when he’s having fun?
But internally I’m very stressed and upset. I want to be able to just let it go and not be so focused on how the house looks.

Can you pop out for a bit Ginger? Being out of the house might help.

I just always refused to go down the slope of doing everything. DH grew up in a house where he didn't have to do anything as they had a housekeeper so he was not used to doing domestic stuff. From day one with both of us having our long commutes and FT work I just made sure to never fall in to the role of facilitator or skivvy as I would call it.

In the very early days it made for a few stand offs but I had the metaphorical balls to literally say well you can starve, have dirty clothes, etc. I remember him assuming I would write all the Christmas cards, his Mother had always done this but there was no way that was ever happening. Just reading upthread the poster saying they looked for thoughtful presents for their DH relatives. I think many women want to be seen as kind and nice so they literally try too hard. They worry about being judged and you only have to read these boards to see that it happens. A recurring thread on here is, I'm thinking of getting a cleaner but feel guilty, why feel guilty as long as you treat you cleaner well and give them a decent wage. Guilt seems to be a recurring theme.

I'm one of five sisters and to a woman they are all martyrs to their men, they see me as really selfish. So when I go away for a weekend they are horrified I dont shop and leave DH dinners. He tried that when I went away when we were first together pre dc. What shall I do about food. Well see that big white thing in the corner it's called a fridge you buy food and put it in it and then you take it out and cook it was my reply.

The big difference between myself and my sisters is I have always had financial independence. Being economically viable meant I could have always walked away. I did briefly this year after twenty years, issues sorted after painful discussions thankfully.

I do agree about societal and familial expectations but I dance to my own tune. Viewed as awkward by men especially but what they think of me, I really don't care.

I don't live with my DP. He went off travelling for three months and assumed I'd be happy to pop in every week and water his 30+ indoor plants.

I bluntly told him I didn't give a shit about his plants and he'd better pay someone to do so. So he did.

It was a teaching moment.

DH did get off the computer and clean the kitchen. I was upstairs hoovering and heard him in the game again. Came down and had a few words about how it’s not fair for me to be working while he’s playing. He said he’d finished the kitchen so I pointed out the other jobs that needed doing. Gah! He did see my point and has done more so House is now clean

‘In all honesty I think I would have reached a tipping point by now, divorced him and used the maintenence to hire a nanny. Think how much easier your life would be!’

Very many men don’t pay maintenance though.

“It's too much for me to do and be happy" is an entirely subjective position that men take all the time. "It's got to be done for a whole ton of external reasons so I'm going to do it" is an objective position that women take all the time.

YES!!

Yes I think guilt plays a bit part. Also if you are aware how much time and effort something takes it feels selfish to leave it to someone else.
To the PP who was talking about ironing her DHs shirts I was in a similar situation. My DH sort of expected / hoped I'd do it when we first moved in. If you ask him he'd say no of course not but that fact the question even came up of me possibly doing it says it all.
Anyway I was very clear -his clothes are not my problem. He ended up ironing a few himself and then opening an account with a loyalty card at the local dry cleaners.

My MIL also had to organise and cater for her own birthday this year. I felt bad for her and told her husband and son they should be ashamed of themselves (I got a shrug in reply). Then I started thinking maybe next year I should do something for her but then it's me facilitating and the men in her family (the poor woman doesn't have daughters) still do nothing.

Awesome article in the Times today on this very issue. Caitlin Moran

A woman’s life is only as good as the man she marries

So true

I just read this article. So so true.

Oh definitely. I actually am married to someone who probably does around 50%, notwithstanding that my 50% includes the mental load. Yet I know that so much of this was a stroke of luck. I look around and see that so much of women's happiness is influenced by who they're partnered with. It's very hard to future proof yourself against that.

Yeah NHS job (paediatric registrar), currently on thirteen hour shift in NICU! I think it is really difficult to break this pattern. My mum worked full time and did everything when I was growing up. When I've been at the end of my tether she has actually said to me "I know it's rubbish, but if you are going to do it anyway, there is no point moaning about it". My sister actually believes in 'pink jobs' and 'blue jobs'. My mil was a sahm and did everything for everybody (including dh). He has been socialised this way and so have I. I get told how lucky I am that he gets up at night with the baby (no one told him how lucky he was when I was getting up 4 times a night to breast feed for 8months). If the house is a tip and the kids are eating pizza I feel like a failure. He couldn't care less. How do you break that? Dh and I have been together since we were 16, we have a great time together and I love him. I can't imagine leaving him because he doesn't pull his weight. So I feel kind of stuck. I also feel like I'm carrying about alot of resentment! I worry alot about the message my children are seeing. I already feel like my dd is so much more likely to do jobs than ds... I don't want to perpetuate this. But if I stop they end up living in chaos (which as eldest has Asd is just not an option). If there is anyone who has successfully managed to break this please give me hints! Because whenever we have an argument I end up thinking I was wrong in the first place!

YY about the fact H thinks he is doing a lot.
And so he is told by everyone too (incl my mum).

I fell ill a few years ago with ME. So tired I couldn’t physically go up the stairs so I was going downstairs in the am and back upstairs in the evening to go to bed. And then sitting most of the day in an armchair because I really couldnt do anything.
H had no other option than stepping up. I just stopped.
But you know what? I was still the one keeping the house running. The ones who thought about the papers to sign and send back to school. The one who organised hols. The one who took the dcs to the doctor/dentist. Who did the shopping. The one who was there emotionally for the dcs. The ones who went to all the parents evenings.
So yes H did step up and started to lunches in the am and cooking some evenings. He did the hoovering (maybe once every 6 weeks?). And some of the clothes washing.
The rest was left. No cleaning of the floors, bathrooms very vaguely cleaned (I was the one to still clean to loos). Move on a few years, and H wonders why I think the house is a tip and a disgrace. Why I am getting upset that I am the one on all four cleaning some glue in the floor (left when we had th efloor fitted a few years ago).
And I know he is aghast if I’m saying that actually no he did very little and much less than What he should have done to keep the house clean. Because in his head he has done A LOT and deserves a medal of some sort....

Nemo my mum is saying something quite similar.
Despite raising me as a ‘feminist’ (as in men and women ARE equal and you can and will do whatever you want to be in life), her comment is often that I shouldnt get upset about some many little details. That this is how things are and look of much more H is doing for you.
If I say that if the roles were reversed, it would be considered normal so why is it not normal for H to do the same, I have a ‘oh well, you know’....

And YY about ressentment and I am certainly considering leaving him over that.
Because for me, it’s a sign of a total lack of respect and I can stand it less and less.
The worse thing is that my MIL told me befire that she was really set in teaching her son that he had to do some HW etc...
And H has learnt but is still not seeing that as his responsibility. He even told me that when he was growing up, that’s how things were. Mums were at home not working. He seems to have completely forgotten that his mum wasn’t a SAHM. She was a farmer who worked everyday, weekend incl plus some work outside the farm to make needs meet.
Strange too how memory can be selective too....

When we got engaged, MIL insisted on giving me lessons in how to cook some certain Iranian foods. It never occurred to her that I might not be interested. She is very high-maintenance at the best of times and takes offence very easily. I was . DH said, not to worry, "just go with it," as it was her way of bonding with me. He said she just wanted to feel part of things as she didn't have a daughter. Also it was worth keeping her happy as it would stop her interfering in the wedding. So I had months of this and she still interfered anyway! Of course, it had never occurred to her at any point to impart her culinary skills to DH - oh no. To this day, she come round and gives me vegetables and spices for this and that. I just smile and nod, make the odd Iranian dish and compensate for the hassle with Deliveroo!

leCroissants point about the big society is an excellent one.
I hear as well a lot of moaning in the press about how ‘in our culture the elderly are cared for ...the West has a lot to learn..’ and what they really mean is that women are domestic slaves. To their fathers as children, then to their husbands and Children, and then to ageing relatives. All this of course is women’s work. And these uppity western women won’t do it any more,

I have an aunt who does a Astaggering amount for her extended family. She takes care of three different mums children (her grandkids) for free, she looks after her husband’s elderly mother, she runs around after her own kids (who frankly are lazy fuckers.) she does everything and she’s holding everything together. She’s also unwell with a chronic illness in a family where everyone’s heart gives out in their late sixties.
I often wonder what will happen when she is unable to do all this for them. They are all so ungrateful for the work she does. It’s staggering.

Oh yes absolutely. There've been a number of threads on here deconstructing that particular argument. To say nothing of the demographic differences between the UK and most countries where the elderly are cared for within the family. But even then, there's a female shitwork class doing it, whether that's women in the family or imported women.

Very many men don’t pay maintenance though.
Oh I know

You are right about the crap work being for females, whether imported or not. The only time I really had proper free time and the ability to plan my life without having to consider DC and consult with DH was when we lived abroad and had a live in maid. It was bliss for me, no rubbish housework and being able to wander out in the evening whenever I felt like it. In fact just like the life my DH has always had.

I had a conversation with a colleague at work a few months ago. She's in a same-sex relationship, no children, and is very senior in the organisation. She's never had to deal with more than half the domestic crap (not sure what her partner does, but something in the private sector, I think), and she's never had to do the wife-work, so her career has taken off. So has mine, being facilitated by DH (I posted above and on the previous thread about this).

We were discussing what it would take to get our organisation to be really inclusive - we're not terrible, but basically the senior people are a bunch of facilitated men with children, one facilitated woman with a child (me, and I think it's probably significant that I have only one), and some child-free women. We didn't name the problem in the helpful language on this thread, but basically where we got to was that we couldn't hope for real equality until the men were as likely to be carrying a domestic load as the women. All we can do is mentor and encourage younger women, be positive about recruiting women returners, and try to make sure we don't make the workplace more difficult for people with caring responsibilities than it needs to be. But if anyone on this thread has more and better ideas, I'd be grateful for them. (This is, incidentally, an organisation that is good at part-time and flexible working, and pays decently for parental leave - about half my team are part time and almost everyone works flexibly in some way.)