Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

netfret

I suppose you are doing what you can. To me there are three sources of pressure - one from within the family, one from society specifically the employer and then both of those factors are reinforced by society in general.

The only one you can control as a well intentioned employer is the second. Flex and part time is great. But you can go further. You can set policies that genuinely don’t disadvantage women. Or encourage male facilitation. So for example - late meetings. Early meetings. Short notice travel. Preenteeism. Jollies at short notice. Those are what really floor working mums - and they’re prevalent even in organisations that have good flex policies. Many employers talk the talk with flexi etc but when it comes down to it, if deals are being done on the golf course, or in an airport lounge on a days notice then all the part time friendly working isn’t worth a thing.

I suppose you need to think at every stage “is this thing I’m asking of my workforce disadvantaging a non facilitated worker?” If the answer is yes, then stop!

My employer for example thinks they are progressive by allowing me some flex time.

But then they want me to go to an area with zika on two days notice - so no and then it’s well WHY won’t you go? Why can’t you go? Because I can’t just fuck off and leave my kid.
Or they need me to suddenly stay until 8pm to talk to someone in the USA who can’t possibly get up earlier or arrange their diary to talk to me before 10am their time. Those things suck massively.

This thread has made me realise why I struggle with my friend's DH, even though logically it seems like none of my business.

He not only expects his wife (my friend) to facilitate him but also all her (female) friends. Not only is she expected to take sole responsibility for child care if she is working, ill or wants to go out (ie arranging, paying etc) but he does not see the need to alter his plans at all if the usual child minder is not available. He fully expects that female friends will step in to help out. I recently cancelled my own plans to look after their children when my friend was taken ill, assuming that as she was asking me it must mean that her DH was working away- only to find out that he was just doing his usual Saturday afternoon gym/meal/pub with friends. I did mention to her afterwards that I was rather surprised and she told me that she felt he would judge her if she asked him to give up his leisure time.

I find it really frustrating because she is a very kind friend and I would happily give up my time to help her out but I feel angry that this means I make my life harder in order to avoid him having to be asked to assume responsibility for his children.

Anatidae, thanks. I think we're pretty good on the presenteeism front - we're public sector, and it's not an institutional problem. Meetings at unhelpful times are more difficult, and as it happens I've already raised the issue of a management meeting that happens late on a Friday: it's a nuisance for me because I want to go home, and it's unmanageable for some people because they have to go home. The man who organises it has a wife who has been at home since their first child was born 22 years ago...

Travel and jollies - ha. See above, we're public sector. We have to buy our own office tea and coffee (and the milk).

When you rearrange that meeting, why not guve them a potted précis of this thread and let them know why you are doing it?

Antidae

Totally agree about the timing of meetings/phone calls and last minute stuff.

I spent years working in a large organisation who made a lot of noise about being inclusive and flexible. I almost believed it for a while and volunteered to join a 'family friendly working' focus group. However, this was lead by the most facilitated man I have ever met (his ex wife, current wife, mother and PA all do everything for him). Meetings were at 8am, he talked over anyone who dared to suggest that actually the current system wasn't that family friendly etc.

It was also standard that if parents were allowed to work reduced hours they had to agree to amend their 'day off'/working hours if there was a work need. The facilitated men making these rules seemed to have no idea that not everyone has someone handy to look after children at the drop of a hat.

Or they need me to suddenly stay until 8pm to talk to someone in the USA who can’t possibly get up earlier or arrange their diary to talk to me before 10am their time. Those things suck massively.

The last three meetings I've has with the US have been 7am their time, so I felt it would be unreasonable to complain about it being over lunchtime. This timing was partly because we were expecting someone in Asia Pacific to join (late, late evening,) but they didn't.

Over here, we very rarely have breakfast meetings, because it is inconvenient for anyone who is a parent. At least in my company, it seems to be the Americans who tend to get the worse end of the deal timewise. (Which suits me, selfishly.)

Netfret - I once stunned a group of managers by pointing out that no nursery in the city went beyond 6pm and they charged £1 per minute for every minute late. They had no idea and were horrified.

Perhaps, if it's politically possible, just scraping off that top layer of ignorance for the senior facilitated men might help? In a way it's fucking spoonfeeding again, but otoh they clearly haven't put it together themselves and prob never will.

Just read that Caitlin Moran article and it's spot on. Not behind the paywall either.
I wonder what her Mumsnet name is?

Can someone link to the Moran article? I searched but only found stuff behind a paywall

The Moran article is here. I thought of this thread when I saw it yesterday.

Supermansmartersister, I started my career in an organisation like that - they made a huge song and dance about the possibility of going part-time, or working flexibly, and people regularly moved from other firms in the hope of a better work-life balance, but I didn't know a part-timer who wasn't actually doing full time hours and regularly being dragged in for meetings on their days off.

Supermansmartersister
Yes, one last act of facilitation - showing them how the world actually works!

As I said in the previous thread, if it’s not happening to these men, it doesn’t exist

This is a really interesting thread.

I often get pissed off with DH for feeling like he just doesn’t consider the mental load or what it means.

I am the higher earner, I earn half as much again as he does and I have delegated a lot to him. I am always being told I am lucky that he does so much but he does a set of routine tasks if that makes sense.

I am usually out of the door at 6:30 for work so school bags and packed lunches are his job. I used to take care of all the finances but have delegated that too, in part to try and make him take more responsibility and it has worked. He also does the bins, the washing up and the garden.

We share the laundry and take it in turns to do the supermarket shop and ferry the kids around for their various activities.

What he doesn’t do is cook, or clean anything ever. He will run the hoover around but usually only if I ask him to. He won’t clean the sink after washing up and has never mopped the floors or cleaned the bathroom. I do everything to do with the car, organise all the DIY activities (in terms of getting people in to do them), all cooking, all meal planning, all child health appointments, holiday planning and generally dictating what happens when. If a child needs the doctors he can’t cope with that. DD was diagnosed with asthma and he didn’t believe she had a problem initially because it was inconvenient.

I spend a lot of time feeling hard done by because he takes no responsibility for any of that but also feeling like I have no right to, he actually does a lot. Is that part of the problem?

He has no idea of the mental energy it takes to plan what to feed a family for a week, just plan our lives in general. While he is happy to ferry them around, were it not for me they would never be doing any of these activities in the first place, they would never leave the house in fact.

I went away for the weekend a couple of weeks ago, he had done the shopping and the laundry but fed the kids takeaway all weekend and it didn’t occur to him to make sure they had showers. I am always asked what my plans for food are when I return.

I don’t know, I sometimes think I am being massively unreasonable and I don’t know when I’m well off but the planning and organising of family life still really falls to me.

If a child needs the doctors he can’t cope with that. DD was diagnosed with asthma and he didn’t believe she had a problem initially because it was inconvenient.

My DH is very like this. Anything medical has to be me or it doesn't get looked at

On working hours - I've been freelance since my first child was born (the right kind of freelance - the one where I have a small list of people I've worked with before, who trust me, and pay me consistently - plus a startup I'm a founder of), I work with people in Asia/both sides of the states, and various European destinations. I actually find it works out well for me - but only because I have completely forbidden hours. I am totally unavailable between 7 and 8:30 in the morning, and between 6 and 8 in the evening, otherwise I can take a call (only once at 3am.. thank God) - and people fall in line with that. The problem comes when businesses expect flexibility from an employee, but don't grant that flexibility in return.

DP and I move around a lot, and actually, now that I am senior I find it much easier to just give a flat 'no' to something. He's still working on that - in fact all the big 'no's that he's done over the past few years have been entirely pushed/suggested/encouraged/supported by me - and in each case, setting the boundaries has paid off. Somehow I just need to get him to realise he can do that so he's not working all hours, stressed, and assuming I'll pick all the slack from that (because I love my job, even though my life might be better if I gave it up and turned pure facilitator, I just won't do it - not least because I feel like there would be the occasional comment about him paying for my lifestyle, and I'm not having that).

And I've been thinking about the desire to be a SAHM - I can see that it would appeal for me right now - I'm run off my feet with my own job, plus the kids, plus keeping a house running in a foreign country, and our own house in the UK, plus supporting DP (when he's here..) - I can also see that if I did it, I would have to be 'that mum' I would have to excel, because if something is your life, your world, of course you feel pressure - you'd go mad if you started to believe that your life, for the next 18 years, was just going to be to do all the drudge to enable the other people in your family to have their own lives wouldn't you? So of course you're invested, your mental health absolutely depends on it.

There is a therad running atm abiut a woman who wants to leave her H because of some underwear.
Some of the comments are staggering
‘He doesn’t hit you, doesn’t have an affair AND is helping by putting a load to go, how in earth can you even think about leaving such a nice man?’
The standard of some women are staggeringly low.

The comments about career and how people who get to the top are often facilitated by a partner is interesting.
I was looking around me at people who have similar businesses than me. The ones that have really taken off are women with no children. Often they also have been divorced at some point and spend a few years in their own, doing their own th8ngs.
In effect, they’ve never fallen into this facilitator’s role...

It’s a bit depressing tbh.

‘He doesn’t hit you, doesn’t have an affair AND is helping by putting a load to go, how in earth can you even think about leaving such a nice man?’
The standard of some women are staggeringly low.

Christ. That one has to be sarcasm doesn't it? I'm not sure I have the heart to go and read the thread.

meganchips YANBU
I agree that underwear thread is depressing - shows how ingrained it all is and how far we have to go.

Oh fizzy I just realised I’m in danger of being that mum. I’m used to working hard and juggling a huge mental load for work and now I’m doing a couple of things but I have the time to organise parties and xmas and make homemade cakes and help the pta etc etc. It’s not to make other people feel like shit, it’s so I feel like I’m achieving something with my time.

The cynical part of me does wonder whether I should facilitate dh more so he could work longer and earn more money, especially seeing as though I’m at home with the baby anyway. It’s so not me though, it was never my intention and the sahm is not the model I grew up with, and I massively struggle with it.

Handbag - yes! Of course you do - I think that if you've been working full time, and are used to fitting so much in, it's also really, really hard to just stop - so you keep doing it, over-achieving as they say, or if you're SAHM from the beginning, then society guilts you if you're not out at toddler groups or enriching the kids lives in myriad ways, and then you're considered churlish if you don't keep the house as well, and a lady of leisure if you carve out a couple of hours to hit the gym. They get us coming and going.

I don't recognise a lot of what's being said on this thread and the last one - even if we're in the exact position many people seem to despise so much.

DH and I met at Uni, both went into graduate training scheme jobs and for the first 10 years before we married earned the same. Then for a variety of reasons mine started to stall - companies going bankrupt and being made redundant (twice), having to take a lower-paid role to pay the bills and several other issues. By the time I had my first son the company I was working for was in more financial dire straits and as I had taken extended mat leave could only offer me a shitty job I didn't want to take. So we decided as a family that it was best for me to stay at home.

DH in the 14 years since then has moved companies twice and is now in a very senior position on a salary of around £135k. We've also moved from one end of the country to the other - my decision. I freelance and earn around 10% of what he does as i'm very part time. Every single move he's made has been discussed between us and we've decided whether it's right for the family.

It works for us. I'm not making his packed lunches. He buys as many Christmas gifts as I do, does all the finances, sorts out things like the best mobile contracts or electricity supplier and runs the kids around when he can. Of course i do the bulk of the shopping, cooking or kids stuff as I'm here during the day and he's not.

I think a lot of people saying "oh just get your DH to take a step back" are living in cloud cuckoo land. Most families in this position aren't rolling in cash in footballers' wives style and any reduction in the larger earner's salary is going to have a big impact on family finances. Depending on the job, you can't just suddenly announce to your boss that you'll be leaving at 5 every day and never attending meals or events out of hours. Well you can, but it's a great way of getting yourself managed out of the business. Looking for another job isn't always possible either, and although it's easy to say that men should be stepping back, on a practical level it's not that easy at all.

Of course you're going to have families where men take the piss, expect to be waited on hand and foot and don't have any respect for their partner who is picking up all the family stuff so they don't have to. But that's really not the case in our house and to paint women in this situation as downtrodden, pathetic and to be pitied is quite frankly insulting.

No poppy you’re misunderstanding the thread.

Absolutely no one is having a go at couples where the sahm dynamic is freely chosen and working well. This is not a sahm bashing thread AT ALL. Your free choice? Works for you? Great. Crack on.

The point is that let’s say there’s a woman working with someone like your dh - she doesn’t have the partner at home. She can’t do a lot of the things your dh and men like him can do (short term business travel, late and early meetings etc) because she has another job back home to get to. She’s therefore disadvantaged at work.
And let’s say the CEO has a wife at home, and a nanny, and a cleaner, and a PA. he is so facilitated that he doesn’t even see the huge army of people scurrying around making his life easier. He thinks that everyone who wants to do well should jolly well have that too, so he sees nothing wrong with needing a team member to fly to Miami this week - only carol cant do it because she has no other childcare. Bob can do it however, because he has a wife at home.

That is the dynamic that’s the problem -NOT the free choices of individual couples. No one is despising you for being a housewife. The ire is reserved for the setup of society in such a way that women are structurally disadvantaged because they traditionally do all the caring/Home admin AND are now expected to work as well.

you can't just suddenly announce to your boss that you'll be leaving at 5 every day and never attending meals or events out of hours.

Yes EXACTLY!! Exactly.

But... it’s not just men who work is it? And all the men with a wife at home can say yes to that meeting after hours. And the women (just as qualified, just as talented..) can’t. Now that’s not fair is it?

And they are nowhere near as many women able to attend such meetings as men. Why? Because of all the issues raised on this thread. That’s not fair either.

you can't just suddenly announce to your boss that you'll be leaving at 5 every day and never attending meals or events out of hours.

Why not? Exactly how many people work in such key jobs that they can't leave on time most of the time? That they need a bit of notice before attending a works do at night? In fact, why do you have to have that works do outside of working hours? If it's for people working, why not do it within working hours? A business lunch rather than dinner etc.

I'm a programmer, with a team spread around the world, I also provide live support, so yes, there are times when I'll need to work evenings, or weekends, or odd hours - but they are the exception. Why do they need to be the norm for the business up the road that sells replacement drive belts or for the mechanics shop?