Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

Children need input, lots and lots of it, daily. You both need to take this on board in advance.

Definitely. It is something we are talking about a lot.

He is a good'un - more so than me probably! He grew up with the example of his dad who ferried him to activities, whereas both my parents said "we already drive to and from work and we're exhausted, if you want to do an activity you can get there yourself" (I was annoyed at the time but it really built my independence). Different strokes for different folks.

Because of my upbringing I'm very "every person for themselves" and like a lot of freedom, but his dad was so hands-on with the kids and did everything for his mum who worked longer that he grew up thinking "men should do everything for their wives/kids". So much so that he landed in a very horrible relationship before me with someone who didn't let him go out/see friends/do anything and he didn't realise it was abusive for a very long time. But that's another (sad) story. Although now I'm thinking, maybe one of the reason people get stuck in controlling relationships is because they see one parent do everything for another (even if in a kind caring way) and then when their own partner starts going too far and asking too much of them, they don't recognise it or think it is normal to put up with it because "you should do everything for your partner".

When I left my last school in the UK my job was given (without even announcing that there was a vacancy to apply for) to a man who was under qualified, under-experienced and with poor results. There were 4 other women with huge amounts more experience, better track record and who actually had the right qualifications for the job. He got called into an office and just told he was the right person for the job, here you are, enjoy the extra pay. Now he's on the sex offenders register. Great decision there, management (all men, btw). This was in a school. y'know, a female dominated industry with a reputation for being family/female friendly.

That's pretty horrendous.

abusive relationships are a whole other area. But about the only 'pattern' in who is abusive is that they grow up with an abusive parent.

btw - hope I don't sound angry at you. It's just that this stuff is important. Things like the pay gap etc should be public knowledge, taught in schools, so that people do know about things and can change them.

OK - I'm enjoying the chat but need to go & buy groceries and then do some more work before spending some time with DD and getting dinner ready & doing the laundry and ...

But about the only 'pattern' in who is abusive is that they grow up with an abusive parent.

That's true, he said her dad was pretty horrible and treated her mum like shit and she was very similar to him. (I know this is stupid but sometimes reading threads like this makes me feel a bit shit because people go on about how men are such scumbags, whereas my partner is a kind gentle soul who was basically almost driven to suicide by an abusive woman).

Don't worry, you don't sound angry at me, but rightly angry that all this stuff has happened to you. I am lucky enough not to have had/seen issues (yet) so feminism wasn't really something I really resonated with until I got on this board and am hearing many stories like yours. I am learning & agree lots of things need to change and we need more awareness.

I think a lot of us are talking about men in general.
And then you have men in particular.
I AM angry at H but if I am honest, he is doing much more than a hell of a lot of other men (esp when you read MN! Maybe not always representative of what happens but still a good idea of what does iyswim).
There has been other things going with us that created the issues. But I really think that a lot of the issues were coming form the fact that they looked ok to do because of the patriarchy and the way men behave around us.
What happens at home is prob more about men in particular. What happens out of home (at work, on public transport etc...) is about how men think it’s ok to behave, ie a society issue.

Yolo you do have a massive advantage though. You will have seen a different way of doing things at home AND you will have heard about all the potential pitfalls before getting bogged down with them.

In that way, you will be much better prepared than I was for example. Which is great.

I was saying that of the men I know, it seems that ALL of them find work sooooo exhausting that they can't be expected to do anything except work. Whereas many many women work part time, less prestigious jobs /../ still do almost all household/childcare stuff over the weekends.

I got up at 4.30 this morning to fly to Berlin, negotiate a deal worth quite a few millions, caught an afternoon flight back just in time to pick the kids up from childminders. Did dinner, bedtime, the usual. Nobody brought me slippers and pipe and told the kids to be quiet as mummy needs to rest . But many men doing the same would not be expected to lift a finger at home, would they. Would be seen as dads of the year if they did anything with/for their offspring.

Yolo Ask your parents who arranged the au pair. Took the initiative, organised, interviewed, selected, sorted paperwork, arranged travel, told her what to do, made sure she got paid. I'd be genuinely impressed and amazed if it was your dad!

Yolo, by the time the child is old enough to have clear recollections of her parents’ laid-back attitude to child rearing, they’ve already been doing the hard slog of it for years.

To the comment about being tired after work, I have done a high-pressure, long hours, long commute job and although at the time I thought it was killing me, I now realise I am even more exhausted after 7 months at home with a poorly sleeping & now very active & demanding baby. I would therefore give my DH short shrift if he claimed tiredness as an excuse to get out of parenting duties (but he doesn't because he is a good 'un too, and they most definitely do exist).

YY to having all these conversations about expectations up front though. It has really helped to keep us on the same page.

One thing that is worth noting - DH has facilitated me in return.

For 4 years he supported me while I did an MA part time on top of a FT job. He picked up DD & fed her when I had college. He took her out at weekends so that I could work. He paid thousands of $$ for it.

I STILL have a younger, less qulaified, less experienced (in many ways, not just time) man as my boss. I've had a paper published and I speak at conferences - I way over achieve for a middles school teacher, but I still don't get the promotions or the pay.

Even if you have a husband who is on-board and supportive, you still don't get the top-flight career if there's a man wanting the same job as you, even when you are several heads & shoulders above him in every way except being a penis wearer.

Yolo Ask your parents who arranged the au pair. Took the initiative, organised, interviewed, selected, sorted paperwork, arranged travel, told her what to do, made sure she got paid. I'd be genuinely impressed and amazed if it was your dad! smile

Yeah pretty sure it was my mum....

Yolo, by the time the child is old enough to have clear recollections of her parents’ laid-back attitude to child rearing, they’ve already been doing the hard slog of it for years.

True, I was definitely a PITA as a small kid, didn't sleep for 2 years and as a 3y/o got my tongue stuck to a frozen climbing frame in the park....

My parents' fairly laid-back attitude did lead to a larger than average number of A&E trips.

(I remember my mother humphing 'You think he'd learn' about my brother. Who was five, and had just broken his leg again.)

Have you seen article in guardian today? Whether a woman has children is more important than her level of education for her salary. Funnily enough it makes no difference to men.

Chem could you add the guardian link? I can't seem to find the article.

Oops it must be this? www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/nov/28/motherhood-impact-uk-women-career-prospects

That article www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/nov/28/motherhood-impact-uk-women-career-prospects is pretty interesting. Tbh the thing that stands out to me more is the fact that having children doesn't affect mens' careers. Why? Because they are facilitated willingly (SAHM) or unwillingly (single mums) - the whole point of this thread - or for some super rich by paid nannies / housekeepers. Actually caring for a small child will affect your ability to work all hours. Recognition of that fact in law and rights for men and women parents is desperately needed.

The government to be honest seems to be throwing both women and children under the bus (school cuts, subsidised childcare that doesn't cover costs, no recognition of unpaid care through taxation). And men who give a damn about their kids and want to be present in their lives. I can't see it getting better with Brexit.

Windy, sorry cross post

I have seen a report in the past that having children does affect men - because they become seen as more stable and reliable and responsible, so more suitable for payrise's and promotions. So the complete opposite of women.

I just keep getting more and more mad about this. Everything feels so set up for men many of whom carry on blissfully unaware of their privilege.

I'm currently single and increasingly feel like I don't want a partner purely because (a) I don't want to prop them up and (b) because I don't want to be witness to the day to day privilege that he experiences. Moreover I'm not sure I want to benefit from that privilege either.

Sorry I didn't link. Am on my phone. Yes I had heard of the 'fatherhood bonus' and DP experienced it but maybe it's not been proven to exist.

No recognition of unpaid care through taxation

Hmm
How would you recognise it?
Give men with sahm wives tax breaks? Not such a great idea really. Even more financial pressure for women to stay at home ("but we will be better off darling!").

And married couples can already transfer each other their tax free personal allowance AFAIK up to a certain income threshold. Which is in a way exactly the above.

Grumpy - I was thinking more that there could be an 'unpaid income' section where the rough cost of being childcarer/cook/cleaner/gardener could be listed there, perhaps with a "thank you for your contribution" comment. No difference to the tax paid (or not) but at least a family would have to think about and quantify just how much unpaid labour is being put into the family.

At the moment we don't even have any kind of way to acknowledge the amounts of input.

When I lived there years ago, Germany's tax system had the option of mixing and matching so the man higher earner could take the lower tax rate and the woman could take the lower earner could be taxed at a higher rate. Only for married couples and friends didn't understand why we didn't get married order to benefit. Not sure if this still exists.