Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

We are taxed individually in Sweden on everything, mercilessly... even when you sell your own home, or savings for kids, (you’re taxed on the whole amount)

No tax breaks for the married or transferring of allowances

That's a good idea KickAssAngel.

But a dangerous one for politicians because women might get all uppity and start demanding actual renumeration for their unpaid labour.

Basic/citizen's income.

In Switzerland, a married couple can only be taxed jointly. Which means that a married couple will be taxed at a higher rate than 2 people earning the same but filing separately. There was a referendum recently where it was proposed to abolish the so-called penalty, but the proposal was rejected.

What makes it even more fun is that in case of PAYE, it's automatically the woman's salary that's taxed at the highest rate, the penalty is not shared.

KickAss great idea, would work for unpaid carers of older people too.

How do they cope with same sex married couples or is that not yet legal in Switzerland?

Interesting question, as while there is no gay marriage yet, there is civil partership and that also means joint taxtion. Can't find the answer though. The idea is to tax the lower earner more - it is assumed that the husband's salary is the main one, and if a woman dares to venture outside of the house to earn some pin money, she should be taxed to death for such errant ways. So maybe for same sex couples they actually take a look at whose salary is lower and who 'should' be the SAH partner?

Oh and also on similar topic, in Switzerland the child benefit is paid by the employer (reimbursed by state), and it is paid to the higher earning parent.

Ahhh Switzerland. A bit like Austria in its cuddly, massively sexist and xenophobic ways.

Efficient, but god help you if you don’t toe the line socially.

xenophobic ways

Refugees per 1000 inhabitants (2015):

Switzerland: 8.45
Austria: 7.13
UK: 1.82

Seriously - have you lived in both places? I know where’d I’d rather be a person of colour.

Also the number of refugees per capita doesn’t mean they’re welcomed by society. I live in Sweden at the moment - it’s one of the most racist and xenophobic places I’ve ever lived AND it has the highest per capita refugee population of any European country.

The uk is pretty damn tolerant and welcoming

I lived in Switzerland. They'd just welcomed thousands of Vietnamese 'boat people' as they were then called. Israel has welcomed more Syrian refugees than england.
But this is a great thread, and don't want to derail.

The uk is pretty damn tolerant and welcoming ?
Women falling victim to May's 'hostile environment' were usually facilitators and SAHM. Like these:
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/nov/28/victim-arrested-on-immigration-charges-after-going-to-police
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/nov/28/i-cant-eat-or-sleep-the-grandmother-threatened-with-deportation-after-50-years-in-britain
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/grandmother-deported-from-uk-despite-being-married-to-briton-for-27-years

makeourfuture

The Swiss are even "racist" towards the Germans... They are a small country that is essentially overrun by Balkan refugees (most of the national football team is made up of them xD). It's a fantastic country to live in (I would say as a woman, too, if you are strong enough to do your own thing and withstand backwards stereotypes, which if I judge by my fellow young female colleagues, more and more are), but it has it's faults for sure. I really don't think refugees/1k pop is any sensible measure.

Oh and also on similar topic, in Switzerland the child benefit is paid by the employer (reimbursed by state), and it is paid to the higher earning parent.

In CH married couples pay more tax (after a certain threshold) than unmarried couples. Kinderkrippe is expensive even for CH standards. Conclusion, mothers v likely will work PT or SAH. I don't know divorce law, but from high profile cases in the news, I think women tend to be protected. Might not be representative though.

As I mentioned above, I talked to my colleagues above and they say they want to put off children til their careers are established and they seem to butt this trend. Our female partner has children, but they're quite young, she was already senior management when she had them (guess mid 30s). I keep meaning to talk to her about how she handled it, but always feel it might be a bit weird

Anyway, in conclusion, I don't think Switzerland is a role model here. At least not currently.

God no I definitely didn't want to portray Switzerland as a positive role model here! Quite the opposite, don't get me started...
I do believe Sweden is slowly getting there though, and other countries with use it or lose it paternity leave.

I have just had another epiphany. Bear with me...

I was looking out of the window this morning and thinking how incredibly stressed I am at work and I feel anxious. And that the bird feeder is empty and that this weekend I need to remember that I need to buy fat balls. And that’s another example of mental load.

And then I remembered my therapist telling me that anxiety is predominantly a female problem. And asking me to give some examples of when I get anxious. I think I have a few and he said ‘no that’s planning.’

And now, I’ve just realised that it’s the same thing. That the endless fucking planning that women do as part of the mental load IS a source of anxiety.

I get what he was trying to say - there is logic in it, that there’s a difference between planning future events and worrying about something that may not happen.

But by god, I think if I was still having sessions I’d be exploring this - this is one reason there’s a plague of female anxiety.

I really think is is one of the best threads I’ve read on MN. Has anyone nominated it for whatever the serious bit of classics is?

I'm thinking that yes planning and anxiety are related because we are constantly juggling 1001 things, so we are worried that we might accidentally drop some. And that there might be 1001 other things we maybe should also be thinking about and planning.

Most husbands, even the ones that share some of the load, would still have a wife as back up. They know that even if they were supposed to do X, wife still knows X needs to be done and will double check and provide backup. Most husbands would not even know that all the 1001 items need to be done and therefore, if wife forgets, they won't be done.

That's a really interesting point Antidae . I will sometimes ask DP to do something. If he doesn't do it, the excuse is 'you didn't remind me' . Aargh!!! I have tried telling him to remind me of stuff as well and he doesn't like that ;-)

And that the bird feeder is empty and that this weekend I need to remember that I need to buy fat balls. And that’s another example of mental load.

But that’s because YOU want to fill up the bird feeder.
Perhaps your husband doesn’t give a toss about it.

A lot of what women regard as the “mental load” is in fact jobs that are important to them rather than the family. Not all, certainly, but definitely some.

A lot of what women regard as the “mental load” is in fact jobs that are important to them rather than the family. Not all, certainly, but definitely some
Maybe so but then again it could be argued that all the seemingly trivial things such as having a bird table are what makes for a rich and fulfilling family life
The Mere fact that there is someone who cares about trivial details makes everyone feel valued and cherished.
It's a bit of a cliche that men complain about women want scatter cushions everywhere, but all these details that make the home warm and inviting benefit everyone in the family

ohfortuna

Those things certainly make me, as a woman, happy.

However I can well see that for many men those little details (the boos food, the scatter cushions) genuinely mean squat all. And often for the children as well.

My point is we do have a huge mental burden but a significant proportion of that are jobs that WE want to do because they make US happy.

I agree, men benefit hugely from this. My dh might not care "enough" that the decorators won't be organised in time for us to host our Christmas drinks, and he may not be ashamed of having people over to a shabby half decorated house, but he will get half the compliments on the beautifully presented home if I make it happen (let's face it he wouldn't even be hosting Christmas drinks for our friends if I hadn't organised it). And he certainly won't have it on his mind every day like I do! This is a (very privileged first world) benefit of social status that I will have facilitated. And no, he doesn't expect me to do it by default but neither is he motivated to do it himself.

Does he do things of his own volition that benefit me / our family, that I would not do, as he cares about them more than me?? Hmmm struggling to think of much here. Can anyone think of examples?

Also, totally agree that men know that if they forget to do something their wife will remind them or do it. They have a back up. In my relationship I've tried to divide things such that I don't back him up on "his" stuff but it's so hard. And definitely not equally divided because I can't deal with the important things not getting done.

I would like to know, how can men be trained to prioritise their non work responsibilities more??

Ideally you both agree what's important to you both and what can be left to slide. Then there should be a way to divide the important stuff more fairly. I still think that men often wouldn't bother to do their half.

I like this thread. I have a husband who needs to be facilitated too. We are role reversing in a few months time (him SAHD and me working full time) so I am interested to see how it will go ... I hope it wont be an utter fail!

God this is annoying me more and more the more I think about it! Little things like paying the cleaner. I will prioritise getting the right cash out for the week as I don't want her to be in any kind of inconvenienced position. When I'm away on business trips, he'll sometimes defer paying her if he "hasn't had a chance" to get money out.

That's not me doing something to make myself happy!

I guess, logically, the consequences of his crap planning / disregard for others could be that we lose her and have to hire someone else. So it's not a binary - great vs disaster - scenario but I care more about keeping things running smoothly? Or actually it's just that he assumes I'll do it?