Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

We are role reversing in a few months time (him SAHD and me working full time) so I am interested to see how it will go

We did it when DC1 was born. Went well I think, DC was taken care of, all fine. But. In the evenings I would rush home and take over the childcare, as of course DH needed a break, he had been looking after DC the entire day, after all. Normal and considerate, right?

If the roles were reversed, many men would come home and they would be the ones taking a break from their hard work, while the SAHM would continue looking after the baby, cooking dinner and making sure the poor working partner can relax. Right? NAMALT, but as was discussed earlier, how many of us remember being told that dad can't be disturbed, he's tired, he's been working..

Been avoiding these threads as they sound like they were started for me. Never thought I’d end up in a traditional housewife role to the male breadwinner. My life is easy peasy though and very privileged- with the ascociated downsides if course.

Anatidae yet again I think you've got it exactly right. I have problems with anxiety but it's mostly about stuff that does need to happen, the 'mental load'.

A lot of what women regard as the “mental load” is in fact jobs that are important to them rather than the family. Not all, certainly, but definitely some I don't think is very true, for women with young kids at least. In my experience the stuff women worry about is more child related. I don't have scatter cushions, DH and I are both very minimalist in terms of interior decoration. We barely do gardening. My mental load is very much things like clean PE kit, bills paid on time, kids adequately kitted out for activities and arriving on time. Water bottles taken where needed etc. I completely sympathise with the poster upthread (sorry can't remember who) who said their H was almost always "it'll be fine" but actually the only reason it's fine is because A WOMAN DOES IT. E.g. the other day DD1 went to an activity. DH took her in, but was fed up she called him out in front of the teacher for forgetting snack and water bottle. I had actually brought the water bottle in the car (I did forget the snack) so DH did take it in, but not providing your kid with a water bottle for a 3 hour physical activity is neglectful imo, though DH didn't seem to think so. I felt bad enough about forgetting the snack.

Haven't read the article yet but from the tweet it looks relevant to the thread:

"Economically inactive? Or engaged in care work that is of value to the economy but for which they don't get paid?"

twitter.com/glosswitch/status/936262020726484993

I found that DH made a huge improvement after I had appendicitis and he had to do everything (including getting me to hospital as it was a true emergency) for several days. It is very, very easy to just not see what has to be done until you have to do it. When he had to spend a week 'being me' as I couldn't even boil a kettle after the surgery, he suddenly saw how many little things were being done. DD was 8 at the time, so not useless. Still, he had to leave work earlier than usual to collect DD, then he couldn't just switch off and work quietly, but had to fetch and carry things and then get 10 mins work done, then break off to do the next thing etc.

We can't all rush to hospital to bring home the reality, but simply stepping away (going out, say your phone got no signal, you missed the bus/got held up int raffic etc) can really work.

Currently, I've written & posted all my Christmas cards. The box is sitting on the kitchen table and tonight I'll just put them away without reminding him. If they aren't posted by this weekend they won't arrive on time, so I'm not going to help him with the mental load.

*And that the bird feeder is empty and that this weekend I need to remember that I need to buy fat balls. And that’s another example of mental load.
But that’s because YOU want to fill up the bird feeder.Perhaps your husband doesn’t give a toss about

Yes - I deliberately chose a trivial one. I don’t care that much, the birds are a pleasure to watch but it’s no biggie if they aren’t fed. It was more that it triggered a memory of my therapist arguing this is irrelevant because it falls under planning and planning is not anxiety. But I feel, personally, that the million small trivial things that keep life running are in fact a SOURCE of anxiety. Just as much as the bigger stuff. My example was deliberately trivial (I can assure you I give not one single fuck about scatter cushions. 😁)

Dh definitely pulls his weight on the big stuff. I’m sitting here supervising dinner while dh finishes work. At six he will take over and do bath and bed while I go back to work to sort out the utter fucking disaster that is work just now (I’m doing three peoples jobs just now, lucky old me..)

I think I’m grumpy. I’m exhausted, I can’t keep this pace up at work for long and ds is refusing his dinner so I’d better go ...

**
Currently, I've written & posted all my Christmas cards. The box is sitting on the kitchen table and tonight I'll just put them away without reminding him. If they aren't posted by this weekend they won't arrive on time, so I'm not going to help him with the mental load.**

Christmas Cards is a perfect example of my point.

This very much falls to be a woman’s job generally . Why? Because men don’t generally give a hoot about whether they send or receive. And yet many women expect men to really be engaged and involved in this when really it’s only women who care about it (children certainly don’t generally!)

Look i am fully on board with the notion that women take on the lionshare of the mental burden of family life and it’s unfair. My point is that some of that mental load is entirely self inflicted and really offers the family very little but WE want it because WE like it.

NB I say this from the perspective kf a single mum of two young children with no family who does bloody EVERYTHING!!

But Christmas cards are part of a myriad of things that foster a sense of community. The 'big society' type things. I do think our childrens' lives would be worse without these things. Take it to the extreme - no Xmas cards, no contact with family, at all, ever. Is that good for kids?

I should add that I don't think DH was neglectful in the water bottle example above - as the SAHM it's my job to do that stuff. I just thought his reaction 'it doesn't matter' spoke of someone who'd never really had to think about this stuff. He doesn't know that as part of the T&C of that activity we're meant to provide a water bottle every week. It's our job as parents.

Yes, we'd definitely see less of DPs family if I didn't organise it. He enjoys seeing them but rarely organises.

I draw the line at Christmas cards. Haven't sent them for two years. No one cares. I don't think.. It's so much less stressful.

Pick your battles.

But yes. I agree, it is unfair and it sucks

The thing is, if you take inviting friends fir a drink, women tend to organise that. When men end up single, they tend to see fewer friends and have a much more reduce circle of friends. It would be great IF they were happy about it. But research shows they're not.
So maybe having the decorators in and scattering cushions is a woman thing BUT it helps them in their social relation and they benefit from it.

Same w the Christmas cards. He might but care about sending cards to people. But what when it will his ds who can't be bothered, can't be aresed to organisé to meet up at the weekend and he hasn't seen his own son, the dgc. Will he be not bothered?
This is the one thing I've realised as I'm getting older. All is well when you are young, working etc. But as you get older, family is often your one and only social contact (to start with friends might have all died fur example). It's worth keeping te contact strong. But it's not happening when you are modelling a 'it's not that important attitude'.
To be cared for when you really need it, you start needing to care fir others

'it's not important' is often another way of saying 'it's a trivial, menial task aka women's work'

Here's an example of something "unimportant" that makes a difference at work: when people leave, most of the male team managers never buy a card, organise a gift etc. ALL the female managers have done so. The male managers who do bother are generally the more clued in ones who pay attention to their team's feelings.

The male managers who don't bother are a bit surprised if it is mentioned "oh yeah - who does that then? Does [woman] do it?" It hasn't occurred to them to ask in time to get something sorted themselves if necessary, they are just expecting Mummy to do it for them.

Surprise: the managers who can be arsed generally have lower turnover.

Bess boss I have ever had, didn’t give two hoots about gifts. He was utterly committed to his team, would fight their corner, support, encourage, praise.

Again, present giving is often important to the women in the team so they pursue. Most men, really not bothered.

As an aside he didn’t need to worry too much about leaving presents because not many people wanted to leave his team!

Whatever, Wishing, I'm sure you can invent an opposite example for everything.

“Whatever”

@Wishingandwaiting Same with my male boss too. Almost all the female bosses I've had (minus two) have been great with gift arranging, terrible at everything else!

MIL once slapped my hand when we went to visit. This was 'playful' as I had forgotten to send her a card for her wedding anniversary. I pointed out that DH was meant to do cards for his side of the family, and she didn't say a thing to him.

btw - he has THREE cards to send - 2 of them to family who his mother has 'banned' and cards are the only tentative communication we have with them. If he doesn't send cards he will be shutting the door on any family he has except his highly toxic mother.

However, his mum is so controlling that he grew up pretty much shut in his room, not allowed to talk to anyone, so he can have really strange ideas about 'normal' communication. There's also a strong Asperger's streak and lack of engagement, and he just doesn't think about this stuff, because, penis. So I won't get mad about this. He does get more obvious, in your face, things.

I know MIL first expected that I will take over all those wifely duties, she started telling me when DH's second cousins' birthdays were and similar. I said hmm yes?
The day DH starts worrying his head about sending cards to my cousins, I'll reciprocate.

DP sends his mum mother's day cards since I became a mother as he buys hers while he's buying one for me 'from the dc'. But I have to drop pretty huge hints that it's coming. He seems completely oblivious to the signs / displays in shops.

Article about facilitation here. Mainly focusing on academics though
www.slate.com/blogs/better_life_lab/2017/11/30/trailing_spouses_what_female_ph_d_s_teach_us_about_lasting_workplace_gender.html?wpsrc=sh_all_mob_em_top

The thing is about facilitation - yes it's women doing most of the drudge work and childcare and for many all the social staying in touch stuff but in the end I don't think decent men are really happier if they don't step up. How can you have any self respect? Seems to me often men who don't do any housework or childcare then are surprised and upset when their wives leave them. Women suffer from anxiety but men suffer from not being fully independent adults and all the mental health implications of that (of course NAMALT)

I'd say with me and DH we ended up taking on gender roles gradually after I became a SAHM, we were both boiled frogs. DH used to complain I didn't spend any time with him (even that statement is a bit like a whiny child - not what can we do so you have more time / can i book a babysitter - no it was all down to me to sort everything) but he used to get home "tired from work" so after DC1s bedtime I'd spend a couple of hours cleaning while he surfed the internet. I used to load the dishwasher alone every night. Now he helps me and we get to chat at the same time and things are better. A lot better. I feel like such a mug for letting it get to that point though. Thing is, it started off with the odd night where he'd had a hard day so I'd do all the post dinner cleanup alone, and he'd appreciate it, but oh so quickly it becomes the norm. But he's recognised what's happened too. So easy not to though.

And now, I’ve just realised that it’s the same thing. That the endless fucking planning that women do as part of the mental load IS a source of anxiety

Don't worry, we'll figure it out, it'll be fine.

Yes, yes it will, because I'll sort it and figure it out you bastard - thinking about me sighing and saying 2 days before a weekend away that I needed to get some of the kids clothes washed and dried and think about packing - whereas he, the morning before we flew at lunch time, ran around the house like a headless chicken flinging things into a suitcase. I meanwhile had packed me and the kids, so we had critical things like socks/pants/toothbrushes/snacks and he found he'd forgotten 2/3 things for himself (let alone what he would have forgotten for the kids if he'd done it that morning).

And as to bloody cushions - I couldn't care less about the things. It's DP who uses them (once I've bought them) - and it's the kids that care about Christmas decorations - so sure, I could not do them, but if I don't DP won't and the kids will miss out.

Look i am fully on board with the notion that women take on the lionshare of the mental burden of family life and it’s unfair. My point is that some of that mental load is entirely self inflicted and really offers the family very little but WE want it because WE like it.

I don't do cards, never have. DP doesn't do cards, never has. 3 members of DP's family have now contacted me to arrange Christmas presents this year. They all know we both work, I have forwarded them onto DP (I did just forward to DP at first, but he didn't contact them, so they thought I was being rude, so now I forward on with a little note to say we're splitting the load between us, and they have him to deal with)

So, even when I don't care, even when DP doesn't care, society still bangs on my mental door not his, to ask why I'm not caring. It's still load.

Seriously, it's so ingrained that women should do all this stuff. Why , if you're a member of a man's family would you contact his female spouse /partner rather than him? It's actually very strange when you think of it.