Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

Yolo If you read back, justwondering was referring to the job she got in her 20s.* Not yours.* She wasn't being rude

Yolo, I am not angry with you. I was where you are now at one time, and I used to think how you think now. I just had the benefit of experiencing three maternity leaves, FT employment without children, FT employment with children, PT employment and SAH which you haven’t yet. But you will some day. I sincerely and honestly wish may it be different for you

And we aren't angry at you. I personally am angry at the system. Though you fo seem to struggle to understand that yours is not the only experience, despite evidence here to the contrary

Yes my experience doesn't extrapolate to everyone, but likewise, people's bad experiences also don't generalise to all women. Some workplaces are a lot more decent than others, and different industries have different cultures. Some are "old boys clubs" and some are really forward thinking and strive for equality.

But I get what you are all saying, I am also angry at the system and how a lot of things in this country work with regards to employment/childcare/parental leaves.

I think I facilitate DP. I would have always said we're equal but now I'm not so sure. I don't know what to do about it either

Yes my experience doesn't extrapolate to everyone, but likewise, people's bad experiences also don't generalise to all women. Some workplaces are a lot more decent than others, and different industries have different cultures. Some are "old boys clubs" and some are really forward thinking and strive for equality.

This is true. However, what women here have been saying is that they've experienced it, they've been through it, and even companies that appeared to be sweetness and light, turned out not to be once they were actually asked to prove it.

Women who never dreamed they'd find themselves financially dependent on their partner, slowly became so.

We all really hope that doesn't happen to you, but personally I also believe that fore-warned is fore-armed, and participating in these discussions might help you avoid some of it.

I'm another one where this has happened gradually. Every decision made was logical at the time, but various factors have played into our situation:

1. The difference at my work the moment I'd had a baby was tangible. I immediately stopped getting promotions, was scrutinized for every day off (and had pay stopped when male colleagues didn't in the same circumstances), was spoken to like a piece of shit etc.
2. DH works in a typically male sector, I work in a typically female one. guess which pays more? Therefore his career was higher priority for us as a family.
3. Currently, I get school holidays off, but the next tier up in promotions means I don't. It would have cost more in extra childcare than any pay rise to take that step. Many families face the trap of childcare costs meaning one person has to keep their career below a certain level as they just can't afford to make the jump (and that means single parent families can often never advance their career).

What really makes me mad is that if we divorced, DH would get half our acquired assets. Twice we've relocated for his career, and each time I was unemployed, then part time, then built up my career. I could be earning double the amount that I currently do if I'd insisted that my job came first. But he could waltz off with half our assets, and pay a paltry amount of maintenance, while he gets to enjoy the prestige and money that he only got because I sidelined my career. Of course, we could have never had children, and had a long-distance marriage, but that's the only way I could have enjoyed the same career success that he has. So why should I be left trying to support two people on his leftover money?

Luckily, he sees all money as joint money, and we aren't about to divorce (afaik) but even as someone with a ft job, I am significantly LESS financially autonomous, just because I've been married to him, yet that would never be taken into account in a divorce. That sort of shit can really affect power synamics in a relationship.

What would you do? I do all the classic facilitating things including buying all cards for dmil’s Christmas and her bday which is on Boxing Day. One year I went on strike but it had no effect on him and she has never stopped going on that we don’t care and we never buy her anything, galling as I do!!
This year I might try to leave e it to him again. He certainly wouldn’t dream of planning or buying for my family.
For context, she put a substantial chunk of money towards buying our house for which I’m very grateful, and we are the parents of her only grand child.
WWYD?

And presents

This thread is a timely reminder that I won’t be writing the Christmas cards this year. I’ve had enough. We had a baby six months ago and split the thank you card list in two. I did mine when she was around a month or two old. His half are still sitting there blank. I can’t wait to see someone on his half of the list so he can explain. It’s embarrassing but i’m not bloody doing it.

KickAss yes I do believe that the new system where women are supposed to be and stay financially independent regardless AND at the same time are still responsible for the HW, childcare, take a dip in their career, has done a huge disservice to women.

For me, either this is actually a huge step backwards in the name of ‘equality’.
Or we will see more and more women refusing to enter into LT relationships/marriage.
Unless men finally accept that they need to do something.

I think it’s ‘interesting’ to see stats that its women who are in their own are happier and live longer. But it’s men who are married thatvarebhappier and living longer than their unmarried counterparts.
Why do we think it’s like this???

Fwiw there are a lot of discussion in France about divorce and having children being looked after by parents on a 50/50 basis by default. Is it best for the children etc etc.
But what it has meant so far is that many more MEN end up being primary carer for their dcs at least some of the time. It’s forcing attitudes to change. Normal to see a dad on his own with a child, to take time off, to go and buy clothes, organise activities etc etc.
It’s changing the way men, who are (still) married behave too (because so many others around then do those things, it doesn’t look so strange when their dw is asking for the same).
I wish they wouod do that here too (and women wouod stop stepping up if said dad had to handle a sick child)

Yup. The more people do it, the more normal it becomes.

I see lots of dads walking their kids to primary school around here. And mine always cooked/meal planned/food shopped, so phrases like "mum's christmas dinner" are completely alien to me. Maybe all the male celebrity chefs making cooking for men "cool" had something to do with it...

Be careful wth a ‘lot of dads walking their dcs to school’

Fwiw, I am finding the way BRITISH men impose their position quite hard to tackle. It’s rarely basic ‘I am the man therefore you will do as I say’. On the surface, it can look fantastic. H is very good at that, esp when we are at his parents. Stepping to put the dcs in bed (when they were little), taking board games out to play with them etc...
But underneath? Still no respect for my job or what I do in the house or even myself sometimes.

"It’s rarely basic ‘I am the man therefore you will do as I say’. "

Yeah, they're just brilliant at wriggling out of stuff and never quite finishing anything and leaving the hard boring bits to you.

Separating from my exP changed a lot. Though we are still very unequal in the amount of responsibility (practical and financial) we take for the children, at least when they are physically with them, they are not with me and goddamn that helps.

They both have birthdays in the same month and this last year was the first year they didn't have a joint party - they were just too old, too different, and with their own groups of friends. So I said: you arrange dd2's party, I'l do dd1's.

Soon he said "wouldn't it be easier for you to invite dd2's friends on fb as you know all the mums?" and I said "no. you need the rsvps to come to you, not to me, so that you can manage numbers, dietary stuff, chase people up, sort party bags etc. just put your mobile number on the invitation." Deep down I was prepared to chase up the odd one for him but it was so obvious and blatant (well obvious to me, ptrobably not to him as he has no idea what is involved) that I had said "you do x, I do y" and he had said "yes. And, what about, you do x too? or most of it?"

When we were together my refusal to play ball with this kind of shit woudl have caused a diplomatic incident so I was trained to comply. Now: fuck that noise.

The problem is that once you have even a slight imbalance it becomes a self-perpetuating thing. e.g. one parent has a slightly more flexible/less hours job (and it's almost always the woman, because patterns of employment are so gendered). Then it becomes 'obvious' that that parent is the one know at the school gates, gets called first to pick up kids, does parent evening etc. Then that just keeps piling on, until sometimes you just think "it would be easier to give up work and one of us focus on home, one of us focus on career". Bingo - there you are.

That kind of arrangement does make life easier for vast numbers of families, but the moment one person wants to change things (have an affair, leave, change jobs) etc then the whole system becomes a problem.

I think what Yolo says about working from home is so true. There's a lot of talk about decline in earnings in the UK - but if you didn't have commuting costs these low salaries would be a lot easier to live on, and they'd really widen the pool of talent available. It's a profound lack of imagination that so many companies think you have to be in a physical office to build relationships, not to mention the social and environmental costs of all that commuting. Going to meetings does that, you can do that via phone calls and skype.

You can't work from home with your kids there really (not when they're older baby / toddler age at least), but it makes sorting out childcare a lot easier if you can work from home, and would free up so much time to do other things (housework, spend time with kids etc).

I've seen a job that would be perfect for me, but it's based in London far too far from where I live to commute. But really, there's no reason someone couldn't do it at home. It's a government job, about 35-40k, so low salary really. Not enough to live comfortably in London on - by making it based in London at that salary really the only people they'll get is young people in house shares or people who have loaded partners. So, not a very diverse pool of people at all.

In Spain, at the height of the economic crisis there, companies actually forced their employees to work from home so that they could reduce overheads (so renting floor space, heating etc...).
People were told to come to work 2 or 3 days in the week and work remotely the rest of the week.
Interestingly, it worked....

Just as interestingly, companies in other countries (not just the U.K.) are resisting like he’ll because you just can’t trustbthose people who work from home...

A very good friend of mine need up off sick for 3 months after some surgery. She couldn’t physically go to work but she was quite happy to work part time from home. Cue for a lot of hands wriggling etc.. but her company finally accepted.
The conclusion at the end was that actually, she didn’t nearly all her full time job in her part time hours (because she wasn’t constantly disturbed by phone, questions etc...)
When she went back to work full time, they refused to let her work from home one or two days a week....

How is that logical??

Sorry it should read
She DID nearly all of her full time job in part time hours....

Not allowing wfh is about control. Shove them all in an open plan and you can police their every move.

I wfh and the increase in efficiency is significant. I was told this job wouldn’t work part time. And yet it does (and I’m doing two other people’s jobs right now as well...temporarily and as a gesture of goodwill...)

The unit who shoved me out because they didn’t want a part timer replaced me with 3.5FTE. More fool them.

davespecifico imagine what you would if you were single. Would you buy her a present anyway? If so, buy her a present and say it's just from you. If you're only doing it for your DH (because you feel he should ) then don't bother.

I once accidently did this with my DH. He told me a family member's birthday was coming up and 'we' needed to get her a present. He was totally stuck blah blah could I get it he pay me back... anyway I did buy a present, plus card, but i then forgot to ask him to sign it so sent it off in the post just from me.
A few days later DH tells me he's been told to thank me and said his family were puzzled and amused that the present wasn't from him aswell. He was a bit put out but I just laughed. He's never asked me again.

That is ridiculous. If companies don't "trust" people WFH to be productive, it's very easy to track their internet usage like my company do. I don't understand companies that don't allow it. Less overheads for them, more staff retention - why not?

In my industry (pharmaceuticals) it's very common. People in my office work from home if their car is in repair or they're waiting for a parcel, and plenty of people move abroad to join their partners and just work full-time from home. People do the school run then log back on. You can do any hours around "core hours" as long as you do your contracted hours. I didn't realise how unusual this was till I moved to a job in London where people gave me side-eyes for leaving at 5:20! This definitely should be the case in all jobs where possible (Obviously not teachers and the like)

I work in a majority-male sector, but I do shifts, normally 12 hours 3 times a week. With my on-call time and the odd short shift, I sometimes work more hours per week than DH, although it balances out around the same. I don't do nights per se, but I do lates and my commute is quite long.
DH and I did have a bit of a barney a few months back about me not pulling my weight at home - it can seem like I spend more time at home, but I'm buggered if I'm going to use the day "after" I've got home at 5am cleaning and tidying, just like DH doesn't every night after work.

“even as someone with a ft job, I am significantly LESS financially autonomous, just because I've been married to him, yet that would never be taken into account in a divorce. That sort of shit can really affect power synamics in a relationship.”

Really good point. I see loads of women in this situation

I spoke to my (lovely, progressive) boss about SPL yesterday. He was shocked that our company pays men 6 Months full pay! He didn’t know. He said.. “well to be honest it would be a bit of a problem for me if Bob took 3-6 months off. And I can’t imagine being okay with me taking three months off! “

Bob and Mary do the same job, I wish I’d asked him why it wouldn’t be a problem for Mary to be off then? Is she less important? Did they discount her at the hiring stage? Probably.

It’s so so EXPECTED that women will take leave and so UNEXPECTED that men will. Maternity leave is at least, tolerated. Men who do in theory want to take SPL face big prejudice from senior (facilitated!) men. And they are competing with the men who won’t take any leave. The only way I can see it happening is if women start out earning men.