Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

but increasingly women DO earn more than men throughout their 20s, particularly in 'career' type work rather than 'just a job'.

Only - then they (typically) marry a slightly older man who may therefore earn more, they have a child or two. They're home anyway and mentally have to make the leap to 'go back to work' and how much that will cost in childcare blah blah blah.

I can see Germaine Greer's point when she says there won't be equality until men can have babies. I'm still not convinced that that would do the trick, though.

We need a complete reset in how we think. The entire planet needs to stop looking for difference, labelling it, othering it, then using it to justify discrimination. Until we somehow undo a basic way that people think, we'll just have the same problems arising.

Honestly this has rather struck a nerve as I know I definitely facilitate my DH. He is a CEO and I had time off when my kids were born (returning each time). The kicker is i work for him and am now in a senior position working v long hours . When I was ramping up and doing about 4 days I was at the time also doing the groceries, cleaning on my “day off”, leaving our shared work to do both pick ups under pressure of time, cooking dinner, laundry folding ironing and putting away, paying bills, raking leaves , remembering special days at school, ferrying to activities and parties etc etc

So. Now we have a live in nanny who does almost all the household shit but the expectation is now that I work full time and really long hours. Unfortunately there is still homework, bills, and general being there for the kids that I’m struggling to juggle. Missing their stuff bothers me a lot but I don’t think it does him. Recent example is youngest has been low level I’ll for a few weeks - oldest got sick this week so I (yes me) had to take a day off to take both to doctor. Turns out youngest has suspected pneumonia so I feel just great about that !!!

I just don’t think my DH will ever see a lot of that as his thing - so I know I now have to be assertive about the hours and responsibilities I have in my career. Heaven forbid we were both as ambitious as he is

Oh and to add that before we met I don’t think anyone in his family received nor expected bday cards or gifts but since Me , I remember and acknowledge it’s now expected
To the point where last year on his mums bday we were overseas and he asked me “ did u remember to send Mum a card and present?” It annoyed me so much i replied “no. Did you?” !!!

For me, either this is actually a huge step backwards in the name of ‘equality’.

I don’t think it’s the move towards equality that has caused imbalance but rather men’s resistance to it. Women have moved into the public work sphere but men have not adapted by moving into the domestic home sphere.

^Fwiw, I am finding the way BRITISH men impose their position quite hard to tackle. It’s rarely basic ‘I am the man therefore you will do as I say’. On the surface, it can look fantastic. H is very good at that, esp when we are at his parents. Stepping to put the dcs in bed (when they were little), taking board games out to play with them etc...
But underneath? Still no respect for my job or what I do in the house or even myself sometimes.^

Ha, yes. DP took them to school.... after I'd got them fed/dressed/packedlunch/whatever else they needed.

DP puts them to bed...... after I've trained them in the routine, and he calls for me if there's any issues or deviation, and I have to remind him it's time to do it, and make sure that pyjamas/toothbrushes/toothpaste are prepared and replenished, and their beds are clean.

It's not quite as good as it seems on the outside.

“even as someone with a ft job, I am significantly LESS financially autonomous, just because I've been married to him, yet that would never be taken into account in a divorce. That sort of shit can really affect power dynamics in a relationship.”

This is really true.

I know that marriage = security for women is very often the case and people banging on about it on mn are coming from a good place (and usually right in the circs). But it's much more complex than that.

fizzy “Ha, yes. DP took them to school.... after I'd got them fed/dressed/packedlunch/whatever else they needed.

DP puts them to bed...... after I've trained them in the routine, and he calls for me if there's any issues or deviation, and I have to remind him it's time to do it, and make sure that pyjamas/toothbrushes/toothpaste are prepared and replenished, and their beds are clean.”

Wow this is spot on. I’m not sure DH has ever made their lunch (unless is prepared for it and left detailed instructions!)
I was working really late a few nights this week up in home office and was just listening to him being really shouty and impatient about shit that always goes down be I guess he’s not as used to it!
He’s never taken a day off to stay home with them sick.
He’s never taken them to the doctors
He won’t take them to a party so if I’m away they don’t go to parties unless a friend takes them
At weekends I mostly still prepare their lunch and dinner as well as cleaning it up and then doing ours (I’d say 9/10 times anyway )

Kickass you are right, I think back to my example of how many things have to be overcome for the mythical facilitated woman or even just equality to emerge! When I said out earning, I meant picking a husband that they out earn enough, to justify SPL for example.

I am grateful every day that I can “force” DH to take most of the parental leave (obviously not forcing him but “it makes financial sense” and he says that he wants to.. bet many men say they’d like to in theory but won’t in practice). My fear is that when it actually comes to it he won’t want to jeopardise his career so may try to suggest daycare at 6months instead. I hope I’m wrong!We can afford him to stay home for a year. Life will be less stressful without nursery pick up drop off (and no he would not do them all).

So the financial part is there but the social conditioning is still stacked against us. And yes I say social conditioning because employers are not going to stop discriminating overnight. Men who are parents need to share the burden of career sacrifice for having kids. They won’t do that until they are forced to somehow.

I was working really late a few nights this week up in home office and was just listening to him being really shouty and impatient about shit that always goes down be I guess he’s not as used to it!

I've seen this with my DP, and heard it from men I work with/my sisters have said the same about their partners.

The men seem to have great difficulty putting themselves in the place of a knackered 4 year old, and giving that 4 year old a break (whilst still being firm) and not escalating it so they can't sleep and we have to go through it all tomorrow too. DP has had our children as long as I have, bedtime has been his responsibility for years (eldest is 7) - yet he still can't control the annoyance in his voice if they are slightly naughty during bedtime. The guy I work with, I can hear how worked up about his son he is when he talks about how his fairly typical 3 year old behaves sometimes.

You see I have a major issue iwth that sort of behaviour from men.

I consider men to be equal to us women. That’s means just as able as we are to do most things (bar giving birth lol).
That means to me that men are as able to put themselves in the shoes of a 4yo or be able to control their anger etc....
I mean, we are told again and again that men are actually BETTER. So why is it that they can’t be better than women at that sort of stuff too?

That sort of stuff is things yoU LEARN. But to learn, you need to want to learn and think it’s important for you to learn that skill. If you dint, then of course, you are going to sabotage it and never be ‘as good as’.... (Ee my H who still hasn’t learn my own language in nearly 20 years despite listening to me and his dcs speaking said language on a very regular basis. How he can accept to not be able to understand what his own dcs are saying is beyond me tbh. But you see, as a teen, he had decided that my language wasl and he wouod never be able to learn it. Sooo....)

I know that marriage = security for women is very often the case and people banging on about it on mn are coming from a good place (and usually right in the circs). But it's much more complex than that.

Well the reality is that women who aren't married are often doing all the facilitation stuff too, just without the legal protections. That's almost invariably the situation on the marriage threads.

It’s worth noting that more and more women are now choosing to NOT have children or to get in a relationhsip.
I think women are now effectively choosing to put themselves first. And I wouldn’t be surprised that some of them will jus use a sperm donor if they want to have a child.
It’s already happening.
And tbh, some of those men are no more than a sperm donor.

Re the financial safety, that’s what you get when you are in a partnership. Safety because there is two of you instead of one to weather the ups and downs of life. That’s certainly the one thing I got from my marriage when I got ill. It also allowed me to retrain wo too many headaches.
The problem of course is that one of the big factors in me getting ill is that I did too much and was too stressed. Both of which were created by said marriage.....

My work when DD was young were complete arses about letting women have time off for sick kids etc. (but many of the men were supported & paid!).

anyway, i think it kind of did us a favour. We knew that if I took a day off to take care of DD then we'd lose money, but that DH's co. would let him do work from home/make it up later/just do a lighter day. So, it became more normal for him to be home with her. I'm a teacher so there were long periods when DH didn't have to worry anyway. My work also meant that I had to leave in the morning and he did the drop off to nursery, and later school. We just didn't get into the slide towards inequality.

But all of this ignores a couple of important facts: 1. There are so many reasons why having 2 working parents is impossible that any discussion is almost moot. 2. Capitalism needs the flexible workforce that women provide by being part time.

It's only the small number of us in 2 adult families, with life circumstances that mean both adults are able to work, that even have the 'luxury' of thinking like this. We need some fundamental changes to the infrastructure of society, and the thinking behind it, to really discuss this stuff.

Have been lurking on this thread. It has articulated a lot of things for me, thank you.

I agree that men minimise women's work; I've also noticed as a long time mumsnetter how often women minimise it too. I wonder if this is connected sometimes to being a working mum; after all, if 'womens work' is really acknowledged to be time consuming and important, then how can I find time for it and am I doing enough of it? I'm a working mum myself and certainly not trying to attack anyone's choices but I am a bit sceptical, for example, about the fairly widely expressed view on here that small children are fine in childcare for long hours, it's no different from being with mum, or perhaps even better etc etc. I'm sure it depends largely on the child but my dd has not found childcare easy.

The idea that intimate relationships are important and not readily interchangeable seems to me at the heart of women's work and something that capitalism largely refuses to accommodate.

Anyway, not quite sure what I'm trying to say, but anyway I found the book 'shattered: modern motherhood and the illusion of equality' by Rebecca Asher to provide a really lucid discussion of these issues, I would recommend it.

he asked me “ did u remember to send Mum a card and present?”

Ask him the same on your mum's birthday. DH doesn't send cards to my relatives, so I don't do that for his either. Fuck the wifework.

I found that for the day to day stuff I tended to automatically start doing 'things' but now I just walk away. After dinner I sometimes go and sit in my room and play on my phone so clear-up becomes someone else's problem.

Similarly - if I have something on at the weekend, I just go out. I don't leave instructions/food etc and haven't since DD was young. Nowadays I sometimes go to conferences for several days, and I do make sure that DH/DD know of anything like after school things, but I assume that they'll remember regular stuff like putting out trash etc.

Just removing yourself from the situation is very effective. I do the same for cards, birthdays etc. Unless it's my birthday, then I tell DH and DD to get me something!

So let’s imagine that things changed, men raised their game and it truly became 50/50 in every sense.

A consequence would be that When marriages broke down, it would be 50/50 custody in every case rather than the current situation whereby in the vast majority of cases women get primary custody because they have been the primary care giver.

Does that sound good? Sure as hell not to me. And I speak as a single parent of two young children.

I think that if society was to actually achieve 50/50 it would come around and bite as on the ass if the sakiktnujot ever broke down.

We went 50/50 but we want to have primary custody when the family unit breaks down.

We can’t have it both ways.

we want to have primary custody
Because parental responsibility liability falls more heavily on women. And we want to keep our kids safe. Dismantling of the welfare state has made us have even more responsibility without the power.

woman11017

I wanted to have primary custody because I want my children to live with me; I want to spend as much time as possible with them; for them to be with me for the good times and the times when they’re poorly etc, and for me to be involved in the minutiae of their lives. And that is not possible if you have them 50% of the time.

In short my desire to be the primary care giver following my divorce had bugger all to do with the state and everything to do with my life for my children.

This is a great thread. The way I see it is that we effectively have our kid on loan for the next 18 years. After that, he will most likely have his own life. If I were to Jack it in right now and build my life around him what happens next? So I work full-time but leave on the dot. Also I read somewhere that women in the 60s spent less time with their kids even though a lot of them didn't have paid work than women do today. I imagine it was a combination of no household gadgets and the fact that no you're expected to hover over your kid every minute. So I refuse to feel guilty.

love

If I would happen to divorce DH, I would expect him to have 50-50 custody. Not because I don't want to be involved in my DC's life, but he wants to be involved as well, and DC would want to have both of us in their lives. Which in my opinion is not possible if a parent only sees them on an occasional weekend.

And want to keep our kids safe
Loving our kids is a given.

We also have the rights to equal access to equally paid work and equal sharing of domestic work.

They're not mutually exclusive.

And can't be if our behaviour and life opportunities is being modelled for the next generation.

Woman1107, the question of who the children live with most of the time (not who gets "custody" of them, they're not property) is, or ought to be, a question of what's best for the children. If DH and I split up, DD will live with DH because that would undoubtedly be the best thing for her: he's been the primary carer all her life from the end of my maternity leave.

Of course I wouldn't be happy - the thought of living apart from her and seeing her every other weekend is horrendous - but I'd have to be a pretty low-life selfish human being to get in the way of what's best for her.