Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

And if he constantly makes you move without giving a shit about your job, that's blatant disregard and disrespect - I wouldn't last long with someone like that tbh.

yolo but it was against a background of me taking maternity leave as the only parent entitled to it at that time. This wasn't a free choice.

And I also didn't realise that my pay would drop from having a career gap. I naively assumed that since my qualifications remain the same I'd be looking at least at the same sort of level. I don't know how much the salary low balling is down to me very clearly having children and how much us just UK low pay.

The discrepancy in maternity/paternity leave is one thing I find ridiculous and needs to be fixed ASAP. SPL is a good start.

Imagine the abuse women would get for going back to work after 2 weeks! (Actually, didn't Amanda Holden get it?)

And it wasn't just my choice it was our choice. He made that choice too, that is what divorce laws should recognise and the whole point of this thread. He benefitted masively from me being at home in ways he couldn't have done if I'd not been at home. In my situation I do think DH recognises this.

Yolo yes you can say NO I’m not moving but then the you need to say the very first time (when you dint know what is going to happen).
Because the first time you move, it won’t make a big difference. And then there is a second time (why will it be different and ‘we’ as a family agree this was an ok thing to do, what ‘we’ do). And then that time, the woman might not be able to find a job or only to find a ‘lesser’ one. Or it will just be simpler to not work (depending on where they louve).
And then they move a third or a four time and THEN it’s obvious how the constant move will have affected the woman.
Which will come As a surprise to the man because the moves will have BENEFITTED him on a work pov. (Tat is if he believes it at all).

But by that point, he will be the main earner and as the main earner, it’s his prerogative to take that sort of decision. And the family has to support him because he is the main earner etc...

And anyway, the woman already has say yes several times so why no now?

And why is it that it’s beneficial for him but nor her? Surely that’s because there is something wrong with HER and her way to look for work/abilities etc...

But right at the beginning, unless this is someth8ng that has been spoken about around them, unless they’ve meet someone with that sort of experience, who is going to know that the frequent moves will have that impact?

To all that, you need to add the fact that decisions should be taken together as a family. And even if they are, a woman will often feel that she has no rugtbstip her H to carry in with his career and to stop him. And he need the work so really does he have a choice? (All comments that are frequently seen on MN for example).
And there is the expectation that he wouod/will do the same for her (I know I did) Bit does it ever happen? What the heavy it does.

In effect, what I am trying to say is that its nowhere near as simple as just saying ‘No this doesn’t work for me’.

Fully agree about parenting and it’s influence though.

You can say no any of the times, it's not a slippery slope where if you agreed once you can't disagree again. You can say "that's enough now".

Actually I know one woman like this, kept moving for her husband's career and sabbaticals but when it was her turn, he refused. They are divorced now. Relationships are about give and take and clearly he thought it was all about him.

I also know a man and lady who were married and every 2 years she signed up for a difference college/uni course, funded by him. When it was his turn and he wanted to study, she refused to support him. Also divorced now.

Maybe people think "well if I haven't put my foot down before how can I start now" but you absolutely can, if you're unhappy with something.

Yolo do you think any of the, clearly intelligent and switched on, women who are on this thread saying that they are stuck in this situation thught they'd end up here? Or planned to end up here? If it were as simple as saying "this isn't working for me" then nobody would get caught. It isn't that simple. And you keep forgetting that even if everything is 100% equal and tickety boo at home, we are still operating within a system that is inherently geared against us

I think it's like death by a thousand cuts. Small things happen and before you know it you're standing in the middle of a life you never planned thinking "how the fuck did I end up here?"

And if he constantly makes you move without giving a shit about your job, that's blatant disregard and disrespect - I wouldn't last long with someone like that tbh.

These descisions aren’t made unilaterally with the man stood over the woman though. They creep up on you and can leave you in very difficult positions.

I have a feeling that within a few years dh is going to be offered a job in the USA. He’s already been offered moves by his company to Asia Pacific areas (Bangalore and Singapore.) bangalore he found easy to say no to having been there many times on work trips (and I was, to say the least, not keen). But what if it’s an offer he’d be crazy to refuse? What then? Do I put my foot down and say no, no dream job for you buddy! Because I dont think I’d be very happy if he out-of-hand vetoed me if I got offered my dream job.
It’s a move we’d have to think about very carefully. Weigh up the financials, short and long term. We have already talked about it and roughed our the amount he would need to earn extra to replace my wage and long term pension contributions (and that’s a six figure increase he’d need.)
But what if he does get offered that?

That’s the sort of context these things happen in. It’s not as easy as ‘putting Your foot down.’ It’s weighing up the long term pros and cons when you don’t really even know what they are.

Yeah, with Singapore obviously it's different - it's a once in a lifetime opportunity and a "dream job" scenario. A 10k payrise to some shit town in the Midlands with no other jobs around isn't, though. But I get what you're saying. We can't always predict or even begin to guess where our choices will lead.

And also, there are many career types where moving is expected. Diplomatic jobs for example.

Let me give you another that’s actually happening : the EMA is moving out London because of brexit. It’s not sure yet where they will go, and various European capitals are competing to host the body. Some are even promising to build new schools and heavily subsidised housing. So imagine your husband or you works for the EMA and you’re quite senior. There’s now no job for him or you in the UK. But they’re building a fabulous new site in Gothenburg. Schools, housing. Brilliant right?

Do you go? Remember there’s now no equivalent job in the uk. And you can probably get a job in Sweden right I mean how hard can it be?
Then you move to Sweden and realise that it’s actually xenophobia central and you’re black, and even though you’re a highly respected software engineer in the uk, no one is offering you a job...

I think you’re being quite blue eyed about all this. The majority of women in this situation aren’t weak. Nor are they married to monsters or out and out sexist pigs. There’s just a system in place that heavily favours those who can move and those who are facilitated. And the vast, vast majority of them are men.

And for 10k extra to Watford, absolutely no fucking way ;)

Yes, I see your point. It's funny you mentioned EMA because I'm working on a project to be submitted to them right now...

Moves can be beneficial for both parties too though. My mum met my stepdad when she went on a training course to UK - it turned out to be the best thing (even though she did it not for economic reasons) because she learned fluent English, got a phD and works in a UK uni which opens the door to international academia. It's always a risky gamble.

Another thing we need to normalise is WFH. My project manager moved to Spain to live with his girlfriend and just does his job from home. Quite common in my company actually.

Yolo, you are incredibly naive. I think when you leave the life stage of being young, pretty and child free and enter the life stage of older, with children, tied with responsibilities and not so pretty any more, you will kinda be able to get a different angle on the problems discussed on this thread. It is like women typically wake up to discrimination once they become mothers and approach middle age.

I liked the point made by one of the older ladies on MN that young women believe men treat them well in the workplace because they respect them for how intellectual and professional they are. And you got that job on the merits of your sound abilities over an older woman. I landed a good job in my mid twenties and my older female colleagues made a few jokes how my boss managed to pick the youngest and prettiest one for the job. I dismissed it as nonsense. Only for the same thing to happen a year later when an outgoing colleague in her early fifties was replaced with somebody who was twenty years her junior. I then saw the point of my middle aged female colleagues

Yolo I take your point about owning your choices and I definitely do not blame any individual for mine. BUT as has been pointed out on this thread, my choices are limited by society and environment. In my case, the lack of any alternative to one parent working full time and the other at home, or two parents both working full time and paying a nanny to look after our child. I WANT to work part time, I'd do it tomorrow, but there are no opportunities here for that. (I do freelance but that's effectively in the evenings or odd snatched hour in the day when baby naps so it just makes those days really bloody long.) My husband WANTS to work part time but no opportunities exist and he has no right to request flexible working as a father (we're not in UK). Why don't those opportunities exist? I think it's because employers still run job structures that were defined in the era of man works, woman at home. And many people willingly or unwillingly facilitate their continuation by accepting the communal status quo and making it all about individual choice.

Incidentally my plan was to go back full time but I didn't anticipate that I simply wouldn't want to. That I would want to put my baby first at least for his first year. I am a total plan-aholic (it's a big part of my career) but I couldn't plan for a change of heart.

I think that children make a huge difference. DP and I have moved around a lot (including Singapore - which is a nice place - but 2 degrees too hot) - sometimes for my job, sometimes for his, I can't think that we've ever disagreed about a move. But if I had vetoed our last two moves (his jobs) because of my own (I'm freelance so can work anywhere, but I had lovely childcare, a good school etc. all sorted where we were living) then I would have been disadvantaging my kids for my own benefit. As it is, we're going to be able to partially retire within the next 5 years hopefully, entirely due to salary rises from moving countries.

Deciding to turn down a massive pay rise and move to a new, lovely country, where we could afford to send our children to private school, and have a massive flat with access to a swimming pool just to keep my job would have been very unreasonable of me - and that's exactly how women get trapped.

Yeah, it's just in the circle of women in my life, the ones that wanted careers have them and are equally/more successful than their husband (all the women in my family), and the ones that are SAHMs wanted to be and have never had a job, gave birth at 21 etc. I personally do not know anyone who wanted to work but couldn't. Maybe it's the bubble I grew up in. Or because my parents were from a different country where there was career equality.

Also, I got my job because it was a grad job, not because I swiped it off some older woman by getting my cleavage out...

But I totally agree that too many companies, even in UK, do not offer PT or flexitime or WFH and that's incredibly backward. There's no reason not to, just tradition and keeping status quo that benefits no-one.

Or that paternity leave is 2 weeks and in most countries is nothing, what a pisstake. Employers need to step up.

My point exactly Yolo. We older ladies talk a load of tosh, it’s all about individual choices and how professional and smart you are at 25. That is exactly what I thought when I got that fab job, they are all bitter middle aged women and I am a graduate with distinctions across the board. I am best qualified for the job. Yeah, right. Only my boss was late fifties and the job meant me working with him closely. He obviously wanted to look at a pretty face and a pert arse every day, so I got the job and not another, just as well qualified and probably a lot more experienced 49 year old.

I can’t even be arsed to argue with you. You’re completely blind to what goes on and how women are really treated in the workplace. Well, time will put that right sure enough.

So ... on Active Convos right now, this thread is right next to the one where a man is asking women what gift he should buy his wife.

How apt.

The invisibility of middle aged women is depressing.

The reaction of people who I’ve been working with over the phone for years and then meet is always telling. It’s usually a very warm ‘lovely to finally meet you at last’ from other women my age, and men in their thirties, and total indifference from young women and mild disappointment from senior men.

One actually sighed and said to me ‘oh I thought you’d be blonde.’

LOL I was actually blonde, too!

Haven’t been blonde for 8 years now, I want to enjoy my natural auburn hair before I go grey.

There's no need to be rude - the job was advertised for grads, men and women in equal numbers, for a grad training scheme. So we can get paid less and learn. Senior and principal jobs are advertised and older people get those! Actually even some of the grads are older.

You can't be angry with me because none of the older women I know (my mum, auntie, friends) have been treated badly in the workplace. They haven't. They've been given flexitime and promotions and been treated respectfully by all. I'm sorry you had a bad experience but you can't blanket your bad experience and creepy boss to "all women".

Actually, the only person I know who struggled finding a job after being out of work for a year was my dad, because of his age. Ageism is alive and well for both sexes.