Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

People need to discuss these things with their partners (and workplaces) before they have kids so there are no nasty surprises

Hollow laugh... if it was as easy as that .....

In my case, we started 50/50. Similar work, same wage, work at home separated 50/50. Actually in some ways HE was the one pushing for more HW (H is, well was, more tidy than me).
We talked about getting up at night (I knew I do very badly with little sleep so we agreed that we wou9d take turns getting up). I was to take my ML (9 months at the time) and go back to work full time.
We agreed to same amount of time for hobbies each. So one day every other week.
Enter dc1 and first ML.
About a month before dc1 was born, H told me he had no other choice than changing his job (within the same company!) to one where he would be travelling 3 days a week. I had to fight with him so he wouldn't start doing that 2 weeks before my due date.
For the next 6 years (during which dc2 was born), he was away half of the time.
Didn’t learn about the dcs routine and left me with all the mental load and the physical one.
Because I was on ML, it felt like I had to do the bulk of the HW. Plus wit’s H away that much, I didn’t have the choice anyway.
H just stepped out of the responsibility and the mental load associated with being a parent as well as the one associated with running a house thanks to nit being there really.
After dc2 birth, I was made redundant (during my ML!). The company that had agreed before that I could go part time 3 days a week suddenly realised that they wanted something else so basically got rid of me.
H was still travelling half of the week which was stopping me from travelling too.
Except ... we had very similar jobs so I needed to be able to travel too, at short notice. Which was impossible to do. Cue for me to stay at home (and frantically look for another type of job to do, that would fit around H because by then he was the one working and earning money...)

It’s all well and good to say ‘talk about it with work and your H’. It doesn’t mean that things will actually happen as you intended or planned.
H travelled back to the 1950 as soon as dc1 was born and left me little choice tbh.

And yes even now that the dcs are teenagers, it’s a big bone of contention in the house (hence the H, not DH btw) because whatever way I’m trying to pull back and refuse to take on more stuff, it seems to get back in my lap again. And it’s easy tbh because when it’s about the dcs, im Not going to let things happen that will be detrimental to them....

Yolo or maybe that’s experience for you.

H has actually had to step up a few years down the line and look afetr the dcs in his own.
I too would NOT have let him with the dcs as SAHP. No risk of CBBees or a house that wasn’t tidy.
The house wouod have been spotless, the garden done etc... but at the expense of spending time with the dcs, doing things appropriate to their age and generally at the detriment of their emotional wellbeing. (H never has and still doesn’t have a clue when it comes to feelings an dreading between the lines). He wouod also have been very Vitoria in his approach to parenting (as shown when he had the dcs for the weekend)

The problem is that when you parent boys to be closed off to their feelings, and you teach them to concentrate on the end result to get there no matter what, they end up ill equipped to deal with a toddler or a young child. You can’t deal with a young child the way you solve problems at work.

I saw a post on instagram today that said something like "white privilege is to learn about racism rather than experiencing it". I thought that was rather appropriate for this, too, there is a lot I got to learn (and still am, I am yet to finish reading the first thread), particularly the concept of "mental load". I'm just anecdotal but reading the comments I dare say this is something I share with many other men and is a very apt example of male privilege.

Sorry @RagingFeminist, that sounds really shit. My dad was like this with my mum - moved her to a town where she didn't know anyone so he could run his business, never helped out because he was always away. Said "what have you been doing all day?" when she hadn't made him food, because she was knackered.

She was a single mum for a bit (luckily this was in a socialist country so nursery was free), worked FT then met my stepdad. Luckily he supported her in her goals so she got a phD in evenings/weekends AND working 4 days a week (no idea how, I'd die). I think they have a decent balance - she does all the school stuff/doctors, but he cooks and does all the food shopping and meal planning which my mum hates. They have a cleaner.

I guess some men are not supportive, or are blind to the problem. Some are very supportive. It's just upbringing and society - teaching them to be more supportive/empathetic so they can parent better, and not just "manly and productive" but with no emotional intelligence as some boys are currently raised to be. My BF had a very involved Dad who ran all the school stuff and took them to loads of hobbies, as he had shift work. I think the only way is to lead by example - to get more men being at home with kids more often. We need to create that balance to turn the current situation into a fair and equal one.

stillwishihadabs I'm with you, I also had some heated discussions with my husband this/ last week as a result of this thread. It culminated in a row about a frying pan, when he accused me of being petty for calling him out on it. His fry -up, his clearing up, no? I had been out that evening (rarely) after days of housework and looking after sick children. Plus I had already cooked him dinner.. and came down in the morning to be confronted by this mess.
I said to him: "Its like me leaving a dirty, greasy frying pan on your desk at work in the morning for you to clear up before you can start your day.." It is about respect. He said I needed to get perspective.
Reading this, it all sounds so trivial but cumulatively, its attrition, just grinding you down when you could be using your brain cells for something else.
I am puzzled by a husband who is a doting and adoring father but who seems blind to the work needed to run a household. We have big rows about small shit, which becomes big shit because it isn't done by both people. He seems to think that weekends are for relaxing. That I have invented the task of unloading the dishwasher as a form of cruel and unusual punishment primarily so that I can display my dominion over him. Plus he has a myopic indifference to the scale/ timing of work needed to run a bloody house with small human beings in it. "I'll do it when I'm ready.." is his response. And thus the conflict, and the erosion of love, continues..

I recently got approached for a busy grown up role and was seriously considering it. However have just pulled out as pay was too low - I was on that salary 12 years ago. It put me in a bad mood thinking about it...
And rather than being perpetually so tired I might fall under a bus, I do now have a bit of time to myself to... scrub the frying pans..

It's much more important what people do, than what they say. Which is why 'talking it over' often doesn't work. It doesn't tell you what your partner will actually DO when the chips are down. Sometimes you are pleasantly surprised of course, but in real life and on here, it seems more often not. Frankly, it's also risky to have any kind of conversation with work about return to work in advance. You're putting the power in their hands to do things to your detriment. I was pretty sure my employer weren't planning to do anything regrettable, but I still got advice from an employment lawyer and did everything they said to protect myself. And I ended up doing 100% of my old job for 80% of the pay, but at least I still had the job (I liked the job and left it three years' later on my own terms).

DH does a fair part of the childcare but is prone to dump things on me if he's unwell, stressed at work or if we are staying at his parents. He's a decent and reasonable man but I have to put a lot of effort into ensuring things don't backslide, especially when it's something I care about more than him (clean sheets, healthy food, fresh air). He also does virtually none of the planning ahead, which is okay if it's a case of 'what will we have for tea tonight?' but more of a problem when it's 'oh we have no childcare for that week of the school holidays'.

Believe me, over the years I have just left things to see if he'll get round to booking or arranging them. But he generally doesn't and I daren't risk it, if it'll leave us without childcare (I had to use Sitters once - a carer I didn't meet till the day - because he didn't arrange childcare for a day when he was on a trip abroad and I was working). My rule is: 'will [thing] inconvenience me if it's not done' and if the answer's yes, I sort it. If it'll mainly inconvenience him, I don't bother.

“ He's a decent and reasonable man but I have to put a lot of effort into ensuring things don't backslide, especially when it's something I care about more than him (clean sheets, healthy food, fresh air). He also does virtually none of the planning ahead, which is okay if it's a case of 'what will we have for tea tonight?' but more of a problem when it's 'oh we have no childcare for that week of the school holidays'.”

Same here with my dh .. zero planning 🙄

It must be nice to not even worry about this stuff.

It does make me appreciate my (most female, but some male) friends who organise things when we go out or go away. It's so relaxing to have someone else make the arrangements. No wonder they get so bloody used to it!

I’ve and am doing the same Phineyj. Letting things slide and wait for him to do something about it.
It can work for very practical things such as hoovering. It doesn’t for plan however ahead
eg way back in July we said we would be looking at our next hols at Easter. I started looking, he wanted to wait September. Fine. I’ve left him to do it. We are now nearly in December and this has never been mentioned. I’m waiting for him to realise - sometime in March?- that we still have no plans at all....
It doesn’t for the less visible (for him) stuff such as cleaning the cupboard doors.
Unfortunately, because I have a chronic illness, this also means it really isn’t getting done and the house looks a tip.

I have suggested a cleaner.... which has been left down to me again....

And YY to having someone planning things for you and having nothing to do or think... usually happens when I am at my parents (who still refuse to see me doing anything in the house....). It’s bliss, even if it’s just for a couple of days.

I stayed with a friend and she booked us in a nice restaurant without being asked or me being expected to research restaurants and produce options and alternatives and I could have moved in with her and stayed!

Dh was at the supermarket and rang me to see what to buy for tea. He thought he was being considerate, I thought he was just making me responsible for picking what we eat. We lived together for 15 years and ate together nearly every dinner - 1000s of meals and I’m the only one that apparently has the brain space to store basic info about what we eat. He sorted it in the end though he picked what he wanted rather than what the children might eat (picky and baby). Just one day if someone else did all the considering and thinking and planning and I could sit and think about something else uninterrupted - bliss

And thus the conflict, and the erosion of love, continues..

There is actually a fairly solid body of research that shows that what’s most corrosive to a relationship is not one off negative acts, but a constant drip drip of small acts. Like never changing the sheets - it’s a constant small reminder that one person does not respect the other.

Men are often totally blind to this. I believe it’s one of the leading causes of relationship breakdown and divorce. You cannot respect someone who does this to you, and without respect there is no love.

When I hear men say they have no idea why their wives filed for divorce (more women initiate divorce) I always think that it’s this. They treated her like a skivvy for twenty years and she’s finally had enough.

I have had all the types of childcare. The best is a nanny - I remember walking into the kitchen the first day of a nanny, and getting tears in my eyes, because she'd just automatically done the little things like wipe down the sides, bring the kids bowls out and put them in the dishwasher - all the stuff that DP wouldn't think to do. It's the same with guests - every woman guest comes and helps out - brings her plate to the kitchen, picks up crumbs in a napkin. At best, the blokes offer drinks.

I just got off Skype with DP who's been working away for the week. He's knackered, and so I bet will not have got the money out that I asked him to, will not get a hire car while he's at the airport so I'll have to do that too for next week etc. (we don't have our own car, but need one next week). That thing that's already been said: women do what needs to be done, and men stop when they've had enough. The thing is, that I hear that he's tired, I hear that he's too tired to do it, and I believe him, because if I couldn't do it, I know I'd be virtually dropping, but it's not going to be the case, and some of it will be self-inflicted (hangover).

It's the same in the food hierarchy thread - men take what they want, and women make do with what's left.

It all feels so entrenched and hopeless sometimes.

Not wishing to derail this great thread, but what we've talked about has legal implications.

Not least as the gov's desire to cede from EU and ECHR law has dangerous implications for the effects on divorce law for women who have facilitated male careers.

The Times campaign to “modernise” divorce law is an attack on women

The narrative of greedy women bleeding men dry is far from the truth

It amounts to a vindictive war on middle-aged women. Picture what would happen if the Times were to get its way. Men would be able to dump wives, who may have sacrificed their careers to bear and raise children, on the cheap. Women, whose CVs may be bereft of a history of regular employment, will be compelled to start again in their fifties and sixties, forced into an impossible competition with far younger workers.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2017/11/times-campaign-modernise-divorce-law-attack-women

I teach teenage girls and I feel like I should talk to them about this. I have tried with students before though, and they simply don't believe me (btw I am not saying I would single out girls to discuss this with - it's a girls' school).

But often it's not a sacrifice. I see so many women on here and IRL who say things like "I've always wanted to be a SAHM" and "I'm so lucky I don't need to work", putting the husband in the position that he should support the family. And then give up his house in the divorce.

You can't constantly say all women are victims.

You can't constantly say all women are victims.

I don't think people are saying that. But, for example, if someone entered into a marriage, and into being a SAHM under a system whereby they were protected in the event of divorce because spousal support was usual, then, with no publicity, spousal support is changed to be the exception, rather than the rule, that person is a bit stuffed aren't they - at no point did they get a chance to review their contract (which you would if this was a work situation), they can't turn back time to make a different choice. They've literally been dropped right into poverty if their ex-husband so chooses.

And the whole of society has been persuading those women that fairy tales happen, that love is forever, that the idea of getting finances set out legally up before you marry someone is unromantic - hell, that's even if you get married, because how many children are currently born to relationships with absolutely no protection now?

Women need to wise-up - if you're going to be a SAHM, you need to get yourself financially protected.

Men are often totally blind to this. I believe it’s one of the leading causes of relationship breakdown and divorce. You cannot respect someone who does this to you, and without respect there is no love
I think many men start with a deeply held belief that they are superior and that deference and obedience from a woman is the natural order of things.
Perhaps what they are more blind too is the fact that things have moved on, women have more options and no longer have to accept this sort of treatment.
Then again I often see men expressing a view that the desire to have children is overwhelming in women and that this will put them in a position where they have to be beholden to a man

I think many men start with a deeply held belief that they are superior and that deference and obedience from a woman is the natural order of things.

I don't believe that, nor know any modern men that think they are superior apart from those nutters on Return of Kings. In fact I know more men who are stuck with controlling girlfriends who won't let them go out/won't let them see friends/send them photos of pills and self-harm saying they will kill themselves if they dump them (this has happened to at least 3 guys I know) and the guys think it's their job to keep those women happy under any circumstances.

I think it stems from our early socialisation - like women being told "if you can't even keep your room tidy/cook, then who will want to marry you" and men being taught they have to be the provider and "protect" their women and "look after them". Both sexes are taught to "keep the other one happy" but in completely stupid outdated ways - men pay for everything, women keep house in order.

Damned iPad reloaded page and I lost my long post complete with examples and everything.
In a nutshell
I've experienced this. It led to the end of my relationship. Women do not realise what will happen when they start being housewives. Men have no idea much of the time that it's happening or that it might be wrong.
Education is required.

And then give up his house in the divorce.

It’s a starting point of 50:50 asset split in a divorce.

Where women get to remain in the house (and this is by no way the default) it’s because the children are deemed to need to stay with their primary career in their home. If the man was the primary carer then that would be him.
The stereotype of the gold digging wife taking the poor man for everything persists, I see. Rather than the reality which is women who have given up their current and future earning potential to support a man who discards them getting an equitable split.

The current mooted changes to the divorce laws would further disadvantage women. If they go ahead (and they probably will if brexit occurs) then there will be basically NO compelling reason for a woman to get married and cohabit with a man. None. Men will get to have their cake and eat it, and women will be left on the bones of their arses. Again. Why bother? The power balance would be further entrenched.

There is a massive recent resurgence of misogyny- women’s rights are subsumed to pretty much every other group. They are being eroded by the vocal TRA lobby. They are consistently being eroded by religious dogma - no ideology should have the right of protection at all. People who hold a religion should of course not suffer discrimination in any form, but the religion itself, the ideology itself, cannot be protected. Yet women are told to cover up in Vienna after a spate of sex attacks.
Hell even the bloody president of the USA is elected after saying openly he has zero respect for women.

I genuinely think things have worsened in the last ten years. Sexism seems to be allowed in a way that racism isn’t. Of course racism is deplorable - so why isnt sexism?

Yy fizzywater.

Men will get to have their cake and eat it, and women will be left on the bones of their arses. Again. Why bother? The power balance would be further entrenched
It may well be that in the future women increasingly won't bother to form permanent partnerships with men, preferring instead to look after number one and maximise educational and career opportunities

I recently got approached for a busy grown up role and was seriously considering it. However have just pulled out as pay was too low - I was on that salary 12 years ago. It put me in a bad mood thinking about it... Raven a very similar thing happened to me recently, except the pay was considerably less than 6 yrs ago. It's so depressing isn't it?

And this is why woman's post about the divorce laws isn't a de-rail at all. I've moved multiple times for DH's job, his pay and seniority has gone up as a result. He couldn't have done that if I'd held on to my job when we had DD1. My pay has demonstrably fallen. I've done a job (childcare) that would have cost him a lot if I couldn't do it.

My brain is totally wasted being a SAHM, and the role doesn't play to my strengths really. It was ok while we lived abroad as doing everything in a foreign language is fairly challenging. We made the best choices available to us but they were very limited by the way society is structured IMO.

I'm wondering if living in a commune is actually the way to go with raising children.

I've moved multiple times for DH's job, his pay and seniority has gone up as a result. He couldn't have done that if I'd held on to my job when we had DD1. My pay has demonstrably fallen. I've done a job (childcare) that would have cost him a lot if I couldn't do it.

But that's your choice. You could have said nope, I'm not moving, my career is more important. All these things don't just "happen" to people, people agree to them and let them happen then moan about their choice when they didn't like how it worked out.

If my partner found a better job but 100 miles away and there was no good job for me there, I would say flat out no - you can go, I'm staying here. Same with him. Or if we were truly happy with it, we would agree. I presume you agreed to it too. If he was pressuring you, that's another matter.