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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans guidelines for schools in Scotland

189 replies

LemonJello · 08/11/2017 14:14

New guidelines:

www.lgbtyouth.org.uk/files/documents/Supporting_Transgender_Young_People_-_Digital_version.pdf

Sorry I’m not sure how to do a clicky link.

I haven’t read through it properly yet but will do now. Just posting as I’m sure others will be interested.

OP posts:
WelshMoth · 08/11/2017 23:04

norah I bloody LOVE Stephanie Davies-Arai. I've downloaded her school guidelines and it is so fairly written to safeguard ALL children. She is really incredible.

A post secret would be amazing. How can we kick this off?! Where would we send it? Downing Street? I need to do something.

LemonJello · 08/11/2017 23:06

How much do billboards / bus stop ads cost? I would chip in to a crowd fund.
Would love to see “war is peace, freedom is slavery, men are women” in massive text everywhere.

OP posts:
norahnamechange · 08/11/2017 23:16

I think one thing we must do is speak out about the children issue to friends, family etc. I know it's scary but we really have to be courageous.
I have started talking to people and focussing on the dangers to children. Although I feel strongly about women's safe spaces etc, I've found that it's children that are the uniting factor. We all worry about online grooming and them accessing puberty blocking drugs and the impact on teenage bodies, future fertility and sex lives. Once we're agreed on that, then it becomes easier to look at safe spaces, dignity and privacy. Most adults (and certainly parents) understand about teenagers and their wish for privacy, etc.
I've found it easier to reassure that this isn't about hating people or being transphobic - but about unintended consequences and pressure groups wanting to push their agendas without thinking about children. The transgender trend pages are really helpful and the site is so thoughtful and respectful that people aren't alienated but of course read further.

bunbunny · 08/11/2017 23:32

In this day and age of everythign being risk assessed to the n-th degree, it will be interesting to see how the risk assessments are done for these scenarios, particularly the sharing rooms on school trips. And particularly if parents raise the issue in advance, state their concerns in risk assessment terms and ask for reassurances that their dc (and other dc) will not be subject to the risks...

Unfortunately in many of these situations it's money that talks - the risks of being sued as the result of something happening that has been raised by parents in advance, but not covered properly in the risk assessment and then not acted upon properly could leave the school open to being sued and paying out lots of money they don't have.

Hate to suggest it but maybe one way to deal with this is to ensure that schools are aware of parents being aware of this and not wanting to be put in a position where they could be sued. Downside I guess is maybe that the parents/trans child might also be jumping up and down and threatening the same and the trip gets cancelled.

Part of the problem for me is that it's such a big thing but treated so cavalierly. It's easy to envisage situations where a boy says that he's currently identifying as female on a trip so that he can sleep in the girls rooms to be with his girlfriend or because he thinks it will be cool or because he wants to attack someone or a host of other reasons that are not genuine, but using it as a means to an end. For things like this it would be a start if there was some sort of formal process - so that you would have to formally register and have been registered in order to benefit from the change. Doesn't need to be with the doctor - no idea who it should be with though, maybe the local Registry office? - or for as long as is needed currently. But something that is a definite thing.

In the same sort of way that If people want to change their names they can - but as soon as they want to have official recognition of that name (for a passport or driving license or whatever) then they need to do it formally by deed poll. Small fee, name becomes official. It's quite a big deal to many people to change their name for a host of reasons but it's not as big a deal in some ways as changing sex (particularly having drugs and operations) and yet it seems there's going to be no way of recognising the changes . Maybe having some sort of formal trans deed poll thingy would help to filter out some of the piss takers and then at least schools could say that only those that had done the poll thingy could be recognised as such for school trips or school sports etc. WOuldn't solve everything on either side by a long shot - but I think it would be better than it is now. It wouldn't be forever permanent in the way that an ordinary deed poll isn't - just until the next time you change your name by deed poll, it's not like you're only allowed one shot at it. It could also help provide a useful talking point between the different groups, even if a different solution is found eventually.

Sorry, that's a bit waffly, bit tired to think concisely! Hope it sort of makes sense though.

pisacake · 08/11/2017 23:49

They won't do risk assessments, because that would be transphobic.

Datun · 09/11/2017 00:02

“Risk Assessments

Risk assessments can be useful for thinking about how you will keep a transgender young person safe while they are in your care. Such assessments can help with trip or event planning, anticipating risks and the measures to put in place to support learner safety. For trans young people, such assessments are most helpful if you involve the young person in determining risk and how to mitigate it. However, note:

l Risk assessments should not be used to exclude a transgender young person
l Risk assessments should be realistic and based on actual risk
l The information they contain should only be shared according to the school's confidentiality“

An assessment that only assesses the issues of the person who might be the actual risk? What about the other children? And how can you involve somebody, who might constitute a risk, in their own assessment?

If you do perceive a risk to others, you still can’t exclude the person on that basis.

‘realistic and based on actual risk’

What a piece of fucking gaslighting.

What does ‘actual risk’ constitute?

You can’t say that boy might knock up that girl, unless they say it out loud??

And if you do find they constitute a risk, you have to keep it confidential?

This is insane.

Pandapenguin · 09/11/2017 00:23

So this is enacted and in place? In motion and now law?

Pandapenguin · 09/11/2017 00:28

@norahnamechange keeping everything confidential from parents is insanity, couldn't agree more with your comments around how dangerous this is.

Feels like a recruitment drive to grow the 'trans' movement which i used to be supportive of but now if im honest im scared of. I don't understand the bullying and eroding of 'safe' spaces and i just can't keep up with all this shit. I don't want my children being dragged into this. Yeah I said it.

Seeingadistance · 09/11/2017 00:41

I'm in Scotland too, and will be writing to my son's school about this.

The world has gone mad. No, a small number of powerful people have an agenda to push and somehow the power and resources to do so, and the majority are split between those who can see how crazy and damaging it is, but are frightened to speak out against it, and those who are oblivious.

Bunnychopz · 09/11/2017 01:20

people need to write to their MPs

Bunnychopz · 09/11/2017 01:24

Was this written after solely discussing issues with trans groups? Or did they consult parents and women’s groups also?

It’s very trendy and badly thought out

Seeingadistance · 09/11/2017 01:26

It seems to have been prepared by trans activists, but with Scottish Govt funding and has been signed up to by local authorities.

Seeingadistance · 09/11/2017 01:27

We’ll need to write to MSPs about this, not MPs.

Pandapenguin · 09/11/2017 01:28

Thick question but do private schools also have to follow this guidance? Is it set in stome or is it a provision with some flexibility depending on individual circumstances?

Bunnychopz · 09/11/2017 01:29

Bunny registering will not detare men wanting to pose as trans to abuse women. Registering will give them backing to go into female spaces without challenge

Seeingadistance · 09/11/2017 01:33

I would hope that no one is obliged to follow it. I’ve not had a chance to read it through, just scrolled to the page about legislation and they’re being creative in their interpretations.

Problem is that Local Authorities have given it their backing so state schools may be compelled by them to abide by it. Private schools presumably will have more freedom to file it in the recycling bin.

Datun · 09/11/2017 01:41

Someone on another site made a good point.

As the guidelines will effectively make trans people more important than anyone else, the social contagion is going catch on pretty quickly.

notafish · 09/11/2017 06:55

Yes. I don't think we've seen anything yet in terms of social contagion. This year 1 trans identifying person in the schola, next year several, tge follow year 10+ in every school...? At least the faster it spreads the faster it might be addressed. Maybe young people themselves will address the insanity and create a backlash through social media. Maybe I'm being too optimistic

My DC's school has a female identifying as trans and the school have literally put the flags out ( rainbow flags and lanyards everywhere DD says) DD sees the person and says they feel sorry for them and like they just want to fade into the background. She acknowledges the attention could be excrutiating this person. Incidentally this person has opted out of PE and to use teacher's facilities. I won't know if the school gave them the opportunity to do otherwise.

If similar guidance as the Scottish guidance makes it to my DC's school, I will send them the link to Stephanie Arie-Davies' statement recently made in parliament ( or was it HoC)

Knusper · 09/11/2017 07:38

Datun that's a very good point about social contagion.

FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 09/11/2017 07:49

Jesus Christ, I've never been more pleased to be out of the UK at the moment - especially since I have one young emo son who could probably be persuaded of many things, and another who loves everything pink and sparkly (and lego ninjago and hulk and bad guys...)

Could someone get a risk assessment from a previous school trip regarding accommodation - surely there is, somewhere, a piece of paper talking about how they are dealing with sex-segregated sleeping arrangements? (given my child minder had a folder of risk assessments covering everything from the mud kitchen to the scooters, I feel schools must have this stuff)

Once you have that, you can ask how following this new trans legislation affects the risks from this previous risk assessment, how it is going to change, and why those risks are now presumably negated for a girl who wants to sleep with the boys or a boy who wants to sleep with the girls.

Knusper · 09/11/2017 07:53

And norahnamechange I agree that it might be possible to unite people around protecting the dignity and safety of all children.

The thing that gets me is the possibility of such huge changes being made without informing parents. That an ideology is being pushed as fact. At least with religion parents are aware and can usually choose a secular school if they wish.

And, most of all, the lack of evidence involved. It's astounding. No evidence that unquestioning affirmation is beneficial for trans identifying kids. No evidence that such changes won't undermine the safety and dignity of girls (half of the school population!!) Plenty of evidence to suggest that this guidance might be detrimental their wellbeing.

I honestly can't think of a good comparison. This seems unprecedented.

FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 09/11/2017 07:55

Ha! Yes:

Dorset guidelines for instance:

Generic Risk Assessments.doc

Under safeguarding for residential trips:

Risk Before Control Measures: Injury, death, abduction, abuse
Persons At Risk: Pupils and Staff
Control Measures: Separate male and female sleeping accommodation
Residual Risk Rating: Low

So, if they are changing to gender separated sleeping accommodation, how does that change the residual risk rating.

Now I'm not saying force the transboy to sleep in with the girls necessarily, but separate accommodation would seem to me to be better from a risk control perspective than putting the transboy (ie female) in a dorm with the boys.

CoteDAzur · 09/11/2017 08:11

"Boy says he would 'more comfortable' on the school trip sleeping with the girls - that's his right"

Wouldn't they all? Hmm

I'm so glad that none of this nonsense was around when I was a teen girl. I can think of 5-6 boys who would take advantage of this to grope and terrorise us girls on school trips.

Thelilywhite · 09/11/2017 08:46

I wrote to my MSP three times. Eventually got a bs reply saying nothing except how great the SNP are on equality issues and enclosing some leaflets about trans rights. Hate to be negative but I think tbat particular route is a waste of time. Especially since so much is already happening. I agree that we should do something though but what could make enough of an impact without a danger to ourselves.

AssignedPerfectAtBirth · 09/11/2017 09:06

There was a discussion on Radio Scotland this morning about a @ScotGov Consultation on enabling GNC on self declaration with no medical intervention. I can't find it online. Does anyone know about it?

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