Women prefer working for male bosses

[DamsonInDistressss]

It seems a common argument that the lack of women in senior management positions is a result of the patriarchy. However, I was surprised to read in a recent thread on here that the majority of women prefer female bosses and are more likely to collaborate with a man than with another woman. I can't find that thread so am reposting here.

If true, this is surely a prime example of us women shooting ourselves in the foot and must be a serious contributor to male dominance.

Is the issue not that problems with them can be quite gendered?

When I have fallen out with female bosses, their behaviour has manifested itself as nasty, personal criticism and bitching.

An awful male boss however, just decided to be aggressive as he could get away with that as I was a woman working on my own with him.

Good and bad management practices in the day-to-day of getting work done, don't discriminate in my experience.

You do realise this is a public forum and that includes regulars, non regulars and regulars who have name changed?

Yup, I think after 8 years on here I have just about worked that out.

Do you sit down checking every posters name, checking into their history? and why on earth would you do that, simply because you don’t agree with their experiences or assertions

no I can't be arsed. Just usually threads are mainly regulars who's names I recognise and this one isn't.
Certain topics seem to get new posters on them and its usually to suggest women are somehow to inferior to men, I find it interesting.
Other topics are like tumbleweed.

MountainOfMegiddo

Thanks for the advice.

DamsonInDistresss

Of course you have every right to post in whatever section you want.

But when someone says they don’t believe in male violence, yet they ‘identify’ as a feminist, it’s a useful marker for people like me.

Because there are certain viewpoints which, for me, need to be met, for their feminist credibility to be considered.

Frequently, it’s not relevant. In this case, to me, it is.

As we're all about the anecdote on this, here's mine.

By far the worse bosses I've had have been men. By orders of magnitude, as in the kind of "bad boss" that ends up in a grievance procedure and tribunal. None of the women were ever bad like that.
I've had a mix over my career, about half and half men and women and I've good and bad from both. So despite my awful experience with male bosses, I have no preference for the sex of the person I work for, as long as they're a decent human being.

Which make me curious about how people who have bad experience with women bosses write them off so whole heartedly. Like zaphod posted above, could it be that we hold women to a higher standard? This comes up in the training on unconscious bias that my company do with hiring managers - it's pretty basic to be asked to challenge your assumptions about the sex/race/age of the person you're working with and test them out to see if your subconsious is playing tricks on you. You'd be in the minority if it wasn't...

SophoclesTheFox

This comes up in the training on unconscious bias that my company do with hiring managers - it's pretty basic to be asked to challenge your assumptions about the sex/race/age of the person you're working with and test them out to see if your subconsious is playing tricks on you.

Which tallies with jellys links above.

That, despite exhibiting identical behaviour to men, women are still perceived differently.

Like zaphod posted above, could it be that we hold women to a higher standard?

I think not reducing staff to tears is a reasonable standard to expect of both sexes.

it's pretty basic to be asked to challenge your assumptions about the sex/race/age of the person you're working with and test them out to see if your subconsious is playing tricks on you

That works both ways- such as the assumption that a female manager will be more nurturing, more keen to develop staff, more likely to appreciate family issues

I've worked with some incredible women and men. I'm afraid to say that there is something about a particular kind of bitchyness that I have only experienced between female superiors and their female subordinates - this included personal remarks about attire, make up, looks etc etc. I just don't understand why this occurs so often

I now assume women will not be good managers and I have not been disappointed in this assumption.

I don’t hold women to a different standard. Ideally I’d like a boss who highlighted the good works as well as the bad. A boss who made me want to come into work rather than dread it. A boss who realized that telling their staff “well done” is both free and priceless. I don’t expect nurturing, but neither do I want petty personal remarks, relentless nit-picking, and general micro-managing. Bar one, my female bosses have excelled at all of these.

I couldn't say if I have a preference. I honestly don't know.

My current boss is a woman and I like her very much. It is however interesting when I mention "my boss" to anyone usually hey assume I am talking about a man.

She's also pretty feminist too.

This:
"This is often why it feels like ethnic / racial minorities and women are held to a higher standard - because each individual is expected to represent the group, while with straight white men we see each individual as just representative of that individual."
When women (such as my wife) were in a very male-dominated environment, they were not allowed to be mediocre, they had to prove their right to be there by repeatedly coming top of the class. The underlying reality is that we still don;t have the mythical level playing field, hence (given preponderance of middle-aged white males in government/management etc etc) men are allowed to be a bit shit, whereas women who have managed to achieve positions of power can respond by feeling that it isn't due to this issue that more women aren't there with them, but that they personally are so much better than the rest. Why can't you all achieve, I have (by my own merits)? Rather than admit that they might have been bloody lucky, or have had to work harder than their male colleagues to achieve the same position.
Until things are more equal, womens responses to either their own achievements, or the achievements of women around them, aren't necessarily going to be equal either. But it's not our fault if we fail to be perfect when the whole game is still weighted against us............We need to look a bit deeper as to why women react like this.................

I now assume women will not be good managers and I have not been disappointed in this assumption

I assume both men and women will be good managers until they demonstrate otherwise.

I do not however deny women can be terrible managers nor make up excuses for them when they are.

My female bosses have only been interested in brown nosers, and are more concerned about them being the friend rather than the boss.

Male bosses have come across more business first.

I should probably add that as a female who works in a very male dominated industry (not my role as such but the industry certainly) it is wonderful to have a boss understand how difficult and frustrating that can sometimes be.

So perhaps i may have a slight preference.

On the other hand my last boss was a man - his wife worked in the same industry as both of us (just not with either of us) and he also understood - to an extent. Perhaps not as much as if he had been on the receiving end but I can't really blame him for that.

But it's not our fault if we fail to be perfect when the whole game is still weighted against us............We need to look a bit deeper as to why women react like this.................

Do you think the terrible managers I am talking about just "failed to be perfect?"

I am talking about women who bully and shout at staff - who nit pick and micro manage, who put red pen through drafting just for the sake of it. It is most certainly their fault.

I am talking about women who bully and shout at staff - who nit pick and micro manage, who put red pen through drafting just for the sake of it. It is most certainly their fault.

Is it their fault if it's innate as you seem to be suggesting?

I’ve never come across these nit picking micro managing female managers that seem to be such a plague. I’ve met the bullies though. That’s an equal opportunities poor management style all right.

"I am talking about women who bully and shout at staff - who nit pick and micro manage, who put red pen through drafting just for the sake of it. It is most certainly their fault."
Except this is their personal response to what is probably a non-equal situation. The playing field is not level, that is the deeper observation, and it is a rather shallow response to just blame it on so many (or more than men at least?) female managers being shit. We need to look at the wider context, and what this (if it stands up to scrutiny) is possibly a response to.

I just remember the stories of female academics where:
"....first commenced her work as an academic, she had been ejected from the staff room by a colleague who commented when she told him she was an academic, ‘Okay—you just don't look like …"
Because they were black, because they were women, their faces didn't fit............

I work in a female dominated organisation (well below director level certainly). Most of the people who have helped develop my career are very senior women. All supportive, helpful, friendly to the appropriate point.i don't recognise these "bitches" people talk about. Some men and some women are a bit rubbish at their jobs.

I've been told I was the best boss that person had ever had. So proud! Although she was very easy to manage and we're still friends (the comment was made quite late on on her hen night!).

The one person at work who has consistently been supportive of me at work was an old female boss. She is very good at her job and her excellence has made it possible for other women (including me) to move into that role. Actually we've got quite a few female bosses at work who champion the careers of women below them. There are some that have negative reputations but no more than the men. FWIW the people I've come across who have been the biggest liars, the most devious and the most likely to stab you in the back have all been male. All very ambitious but without the skill or decency to match it.

I think being a good boss is hard though, I know I've got better at it with time. Managing the balance between being 'nice and supportive' against providing constructive criticism is hard and I think inexperienced managers tend to either try and be everyones friend or try to distance themselves by being overly critical. Or you spend too long trying to avoid the faults you've seen in your own bosses and so create new ones yourself. I feel like there's a big overlap between being a manager and a parent at time, you are trying to give people the skills to achieve what they want to achieve and not fuck them up too much!

I am talking about women who bully and shout at staff - who nit pick and micro manage, who put red pen through drafting just for the sake of it. It is most certainly their fault

Don't think anyone is suggesting that it isn't their fault.
Just that women aren't more likely to be shit managers than men.
Do you think women in general are worse managers than men in general lass?

Is it their fault if it's innate as you seem to be suggesting?

I did not say it was innate. Please stop inventing things. I have said several times that the vast majority of people I have worked with were fine but of the small number who weren't the women exceeded the men. And stop making up excuses. "It is not their fault is a pathetic response".

Except this is their personal response to what is probably a non-equal situation. The playing field is not level, that is the deeper observation, and it is a rather shallow response to just blame it on so many (or more than men at least?) female managers being shit. We need to look at the wider context, and what this (if it stands up to scrutiny) is possibly a response to

I can't take this seriously. I really can't. A bully is a bully. I am talking about a small number of senior women- senior associate and partner. They have already proved their ability to deliver work to clients so talk of a level playing field at that stage is nonsense.

"A personal response to a non equal situation" yes- I wonder why it didn't occur to me to say that to the junior assistant (female as it happened) who has just had her confidence knocked for 6 , yet again, by having something she drafted ripped to pieces , for no reason other the senior female manager could.

I've had a few more female than male bosses, had issues with both the men and the women, had one fantastic male boss and one fantastic female boss. Biggest bully was a man. Astounded by these reports of horrendous female and good male bosses in law firms. My experience is that the total twats, the ones who yell and shout and don't bother themselves with such things as having a modicum of respect for underlings have been men. I do think an awful lot of it is different perceptions of the same behaviour.