Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

[hipsterfun]

Victoria reinforces sexist ideas to undermine female athletes

and this is no different from asymmetric bars.

And to all of you arguing about the aspects of pole dancing, as we seeit in clubs, are literally completely missing what should be the major feminist aspect of this.

When I was a teen, and BMXing, the only other girls who even owned bikes just sort of "hung around" on them and were too intimadated to "join in" with the boys....not because they didn't want to, but because they were afraid of being seen as "masculine" and of being laughed at.

I hated that. I really fucking did.
It's not their fault, it's the fault of a society that judges girls and women who want to do typically "male" persuits, especially something as physical and dangerous as "street" sports like BMX, skateboarding and parcourt.

It wasn't even the guys themselves...they literally couldn't give a shit about your genitals....just as long as you were into it, that was enough.
But it was the girls themselves that held them back, a fear of being seen as "butch" or "unsexy".

Proper sport pole "dancing", as far as I can see, is women who want to be as strong and as flexible as those street gym guys, but who have been socialised to think they shouldn't be doing that.

And that is the big feminist issue here imo.

There is nothing sexual about it

Oh come on, Lass, that's rather disingenuous, don't you think? Even if one thinks of pole dancing as a circus / acrobatic act, it's also now impossible to disassociate it from grubby strip clubs.

She is incredible. But if it’s a serious sport, why is she in a tiny bikini? Why the splits in said bikini so that you can see the shape of her labia? Why the hair flicking and gyrating? It’s a sexualised performance. And it’s problematical in the extreme.

Exactly. Other than the sexualised performance the skill demonstrated are those of gymnastics. If pole dancers want to compete in the Olympics get in line with the gymnasts.

Oh come on, Lass, that's rather disingenuous, don't you think? Even if one thinks of pole dancing as a circus / acrobatic act, it's also now impossible to disassociate it from grubby strip clubs.

I've never been in a strip club. I find the idea of assicoating the type of circus acts I am talking about with strip clubs really offensive to me and the circus performers.

Pole dancing has no place being considered a "sport" at all in my (really rather judgmental) view.

I find the idea of assicoating the type of circus acts I am talking about with strip clubs really offensive to me and the circus performers
I agree.

Whatever people's personal views are on pole i think we all agree that there is a massive differenve between people training in pole as a fitness and artistic discipline and training in erotic pole dance for strip clubs.

I did gymnastics throughout my childhood and into my early teenage years. Boys had to point their toes as much as the girls and I never heard anyone telling me or anyone else to "suck and tuck". I wore my hair out of the way, however I liked, often it was short. It was all about strength and flexibility, and we were praised for effort and for achieving a move that we hadn't done before.

The discussion about gymnastics is mixing rhythmic with artistic. I agree that rhythmic gymnastics is essentially dance, and isn't something that I'd see as an Olympic sport. The difference between men's and women's floor routine in artistic gymnastics is that women's is done to music and contains dance elements. I'd happily get rid of those features and make it equivalent to the men's routines (or vice versa whichever people prefer).

I think it's totally acceptable to consider the origins (and continuing use) of poledancing as an activity done to tittilate men in strip clubs.

I keep seeing the question "why a bikini" posed.

I took pole dance classes - not because I thought it was sexy, rather because it was available in my gym as a class and I was curious.

I was adamant I wouldn't wear skimpy outfits when I started BUT I'm the end I had to because the way the pole works is that your skin "sticks" to it, do you have to expose as much skin as possible. I found that otherwise you just slip off as clothes have no grip.

I also found that dispite me misgivings pole is incredibly difficult and there are numerous styles. "sexy pole" is just one type, but athletic pole (the type I was doing) focuses more on technique rather than flamboyance.

In fact any sort of gyration is banned in athletic pole.

I can see why there is concern, and pole will be hard to get away from it's seedy beginnings, but as an athletic sport, and one created by women, I think perhaps there is a chance with the help of the Olympics it can evolve into something spectacular ACTUALLY for women INVENTED BY women that moves past "sexy" and into "impressive" (the flexibility of women lends itself to pole better than men).

I realise that I might be being naive. But I think it could be a subverted win.

Who decides if it's an Olympic sport? Why judo and not karate or aikido? If pole dancing is allowed then why not Irish dancing, Zumba or aerobics?

Is no one seriously going to address my points??

I normally am in complete agreement with most of you, but as I say above, the revulsion at the words "pole dancing" is actually clouding everyones view.

This has absolutely nothing to do with club dancing, and everything to do with women feeling like they have to label something that for men, is just a sport, as pole dancing, just so they feel confident enough to actually do it.

Again, like I said, if you compare proper pole "dancing" to the street gym stuff, IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME.

I have had to take my own feminist glasses off for a minute to see this issue through different eyes.

Like i said......womens gymnastics, to me, having actually seen proper sport "pole dancing" in the flesh (as it were!), is more problematic.

The actual real issue here, is women and girls feeling so unable to join in something like street gym, that they have to do it under the guise of pole dancing, when in reality it is anything but.

With the gyrating, grinding moves and the hair flicking taken out it is identical to all those guys who get so much praise on social media for hanging off lamp posts.

It's the antecedents of "pole" that are the issue. As someone said earlier, it's like the "burlesque is so empowering" narrative.

And as I said, I don't see an issue with telling other women that they are wrong if what they are doing is damaging to other women.

Lana- I'm thinking about your posts-I'll be back!

The Olympics committee decides on what are Olympic sports, taking nominations from the various sports organising bodies that want to be considered.

@LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle, you think we're all blinkered by revulsion, so I don't know if you'd even take what's said seriously tbh. There is an issue that some women feel they can only take up an activity that requires strength under the label of an activity that is seen as attractive to men. Some women do take up weight lifting, martial arts, gymnastics, sports acro, trampolining and so on. Those sports don't appeal to the women who choose pole dancing, so there is clearly an issue around women being perceived as strong/muscular. Just look at the grief that Serena Williams gets for her physique. That doesn't mean that pole dancing is the answer though. It's the attitude to women and strength/muscularity that needs challenging.

Thanks Bertrand!

I'm honestly not being goady, pretty sure you all recognise my name by now!

It's just, as someone who spent a large chunk of their teens and twenties partcipating in a very typically "male" street sport, and seeing how the girls around me denied their own physicality and strength just to fit in with societys expectations of them, it worries me that a simple miswording of something can cloud the real issue.

Honestly, I hate strip clubs, burlesque, etc.
It is not empowering...we all know that!

But having witnessed first hand both pole "dancing" as a sport, and the attitudes of women towards street sports, I am very confident in putting forward my view that pole dancing as a sport is a womans way of doing what the menz do in street gym, only without the judgement.

Go and look at videos of street gym stuff on YouTube, then watch skateboarding/BMXing etc.

If you can find girls/women they will be the odd token one, not 50%, not by a long shot, and I know for a fact it's not just because they don't want to.
It's because for a load of internalised bullshit misogyny, they feel like they "shouldn't" and "it's not for them".

vimeo.com/119494981

These women are mothers, writers, psychologists, little sisters; they are of diverse ethnicity, body shape, walks of life and are "celebrating dance, empowerment, self-love, and a woman's right to her own sexuality" together with other women. You do you, sis.

or

These women are conforming to the patriarchal male gaze as whilst women have the ability to become writers and psychologists, actually what matters is that their bodies are also celebrated as being sexually gratifying, visually desirable and titillating. They are reclaiming their bodies through broadening the male gaze to involve their diverse bodies, as long as they are clad in black strappy lingerie. Women's sexuality is defined as the validation that they are desirable by men.

Those sports don't appeal to the women who choose pole dancing, so there is clearly an issue around women being perceived as strong/muscular

I completely disagree.

The women in my friends class are all weight lifting types.

They want to do the street gym thing...but aren't confident enough to do it in public.

AssassinatedBeauty
'Suck and tuck' and 'pretty feet' were what was said to us.
Point your toes I have no issue with. That is a technical direction.

There is an issue that some women feel they can only take up an activity that requires strength under the label of an activity that is seen as attractive to men.
Based purely on my own experiences, I don't know any who took it up because it is an acceptable way to be strong in the eyes of men.
Most took it up after having children as a fun way to tone up and have some me time.
Some women do take up weight lifting, martial arts, gymnastics, sports acro, trampolining and so on. Those sports don't appeal to the women who choose pole dancing, so there is clearly an issue around women being perceived as strong/muscular
I don't fancy martial arts. I did gymnastics and acro as a child and tried again as an adult but felt that ship had sailed and fancied a new challenge.
A decent tramloline class was too far away. Pole fitnesses had me curious. I went with a friend for a dare (because we were nervous it would be filled with tall thin women being super sexy) and we both loved it. Our preconceptions couldn't have been more wrong.

Most women I know are surprised how much muscle they gained doing pole because qhen they started they had no idea how much it demands of you. (Me included)

look at it this way....

If a woman was out in the street, using a lamp post in exactly the same way as the guys do.....what do you think the reaction would be????

Do you think it would be...."good for her, look how strong she is"
Or would it be "look at that woman, begging for attention by prancing about on a lamp post in public"????

@lana

In a way I agree with you. It is a problem that women don't feel they can compete as well as men in sports that you mention.

However, having said that, the Olympics were originally war games and therefore it's no surprise the sports involved suit strong male, or pre pubescent male (read women) better. Gymnastics historically were gór pre pubescent males who were light and flexible, thrown above battle walls to look at enemy front lines.

In this way, the Olympics were designed for men and the inclusion of "female" sports is a sticking plaster over what is an institution rooted in what MALE bodies can do and the cuture that puts the ability of those bodies at the pinnacle.

I, personally, would love to see a "street olympics". But, fir me at least, having A Single event in the Olympics, trying to escape the tests of "sexyness", that was built by women, for women, in a sexist world is a small, a very small win.

I have never seen a man doing gymnastics on a lamp post in my daily life btw, so I'm not sure where all this street gym takes place?

So the only reason women won't do street gym is fear of judgement from men, whereas pole dancing is ok because it's seen as sexy by men and therefore not disapproved of? Have I understood your point correctly? I feel like I'm not understanding why you think women want to do poledancing over street gym.

Maybe we just quite enjoy a fun class with other women (and some men at mine!) who are body positive, inclusive and we enjoy the strength training, circuits and moves we learn there. (Personally, i don't want to be exercising in the street. Equally, i wouldn't use those outdoor gyms in parks)

Lots of us in the studio also now do weights more in the gym (including venturing into the area usually full of men) because we want to build an area ready to nail a new move.

It's a fun way to be fit. Nothing more to it than that.

If only faux upper-middle class piety were an Olympic sport. an excellent comment from the Guardian comments underneath the article.
I can't stand the Corens and their little coterie.

No one could have an issue with you being body positive, inclusive and doing strength training, circuits, weights etc. I would encourage women to be active and if that's pole dancing then great. I disagree it's a sport and I disagree that you can ignore its origins when considering if it's an activity that should be widely encouraged for women everywhere.

Was that directed at me?

(genuinely not sure)

There's a lot of street gym that takes place. Started with skate boarding, and moved onto parkour. If you're in London you can see it performed around the south bank centre. Lots of leaping off concerte and hanging on to lampposts.

Its a sport dominated by dudes but there's no reason why women shouldn't be able to perform some aspects of it better than men.

And yes, like all street sports (I was a female boarder and gave up due to the relentless mocking) men dominate, and women tend to give up due to women on the scene being "weird" and "not you'd enough" (but then also being denied any encouragement).

So, yes, pole dance is an acceptable sport for women according to male standards due to it being perceived as sexy. But it's also women trying to move the sport away from that perception, and women who excel at it.

That's why I think it's a very small win.

It doesn't take on the super structure of patriatcy, but it does carve out a potentially rebellious space where men will be second best in a sport that is evolving to drop its "sexy" connotations.

Apols for typos. On phone.

I have never seen a man doing gymnastics on a lamp post in my daily life btw, so I'm not sure where all this street gym takes place?

My town is full of guys doing parcourt, hanging off of stuff, riding skateboards etc. It's not even a big town! Maybe I notice it more because I was "one of those kids"?? Honestly don't know.

So the only reason women won't do street gym is fear of judgement from men, whereas pole dancing is ok because it's seen as sexy by men and therefore not disapproved of? Have I understood your point correctly? I feel like I'm not understanding why you think women want to do poledancing over street gym.

Yeah you have missed my point by quite a way!

It's an internalised judgement and misogyny, like a subconcious thing.
I've first hand experience of similar.

The girls who used to hang about at the skate park, with bikes and boards, apart from a token jump or two, would sort of use them as accessories, rather than ride them "properly".

I know they wanted to throw themselves down the jumps, and pull amazing tricks.
They just couldn't.
If you'd asked them outright you'd have got a load of waffle about how they're not "that into it" and "oh I'm not good enough to get up there" (how do you get good unless you practise ffs??!)

It's like an unspoken thing.
Girls IME percieve themselves as not strong/good enough to "do that sort of thing" but then replace it with something they internally percieve as acceptable, so replace street gym with pole dancing.

Strangely this time, nothing really to do with the boys, when I was riding no one batted an eyelid at me, but the girls themselves had already written it off as a boys thing, without even experiencing it properly.

I'm probablu not explaining this very well, but having been at the sharp end os street sport for a long time, I think the whole perception of extreme sports needs to be adjusted in our collective conciousness.