Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

[hipsterfun]

Victoria reinforces sexist ideas to undermine female athletes

and this is no different from asymmetric bars.

I agree with Loraline who expresses it well. I have watched some amazing male pole dancers too.

However pole dancing has been sexualised, the pole is a phallic symbol, going back to the time of the maypole, although the dance is now a tad more provocative.

I've no idea where this idea comes from that Victoria Coren is some kind of intellectual. She's every bit as dim and blinkered as her brother.

I recall a column she wrote once in praise of grammar schools in which said that they would have been the making of someone like Jade Goody, spectacularly missing the point that Jade Goody wouldn't have passed the 11+.

If it's a sport then is ballet is a sport too? Or trapeze?

No one is saying that women shouldn't do a pastime that keeps them fit/strong. Disagreeing that it's a sport and objecting to the sexualised origins/intent of it isn't "shaming" women.

This guy manages to do it in jeans. It's a bit different when a man performs it, wonder why that is.

It's an adult performance - the vast majority of the professional women's competitions see the women in bikinis performing moves that show off their strength and endurance, but also alongside sensual, lingering and "erotic" moves as well. I think it would be inappropriate for children to go to pole classes in the same way that I wouldn't want a six year old performing the rumba or any other "sensual" dance the relies upon an understanding of sexuality.

To pretend that pole doesn't reference this things as well, is really disingenuous. I agree with Victoria and my own feminism doesn't square with reclaiming my own sexuality through pole/burlesque is empowering, but I think that's a separate conversation.

I don't think we need to worry. If gender self ID goes through it'll only be men competing at the Olympics anyway.

I agree with her, I think most women do.

Why was the man's pole wobbly and flying? Does that count as pole dancing?

If beach volleyball can be an Olympic sport, then I'm not sure there are any particular Olympic standards to meet that pole dancing won't.

Women's sport is dead now anyway.

It's incredibly difficult to do pole in clothes, your bare skin grips the pole and makes it much safer. You can buy leggings which are made of grippy material but it's much easier to just wear shorts and a sports bra.

Most men wear short shorts for daily practice and for competition

This guy manages to do it in jeans. It's a bit different when a man performs it, wonder why that is.

Most guys i know who do it wear short shorts of swim trunks size.

Someone I know can do certain moves wearing leggings but not others.

Skin is needed for grip on the pole. Not all pole outfits are sexy.

It requires strength and flexibility lile gymnastics or figure skating.

Maybe people should try it before judging and deciding it is just women shaking their tits about.

In that 'can you see the difference' picture, some of the pole-dancing women are wearing stilettos. If you are wearing skimpy outfits to help grip the pole better, then why stilettos which are surely a hindrance?

No one is denying the skill and strength involved. But again, it's dance - a performance art, not a sport in my view

I can see the difference in those pictures. No one has said it's all about shaking your tits about either.

It's a millions miles away from being an Olympic sport though. Here are the 5 main areas that are considered for a sport to be included in the Olympics:

"1.	Olympic proposal: history of the sport, whether it has been included in the programme before, the number of affiliated national federations and the level of participation in world or continental championships.

2.	Institutional matters: financial status of the sport, its governance, gender equity and strategic planning. 

3.	Value added to the Olympic movement: the sport’s image and whether it represents Olympic values. 

4.	Popularity: how many spectators it will draw, sponsorship, media interest and whether the best athletes will compete at the Olympics. 

5.	Business model: the income the sport generates, the costs of staging the sport and its financial status."

I can see that there are many areas where pole dancing would fall short.

It's a bit different when a man performs it,

Will men be performing it in the Olympics?

Gymnastics isnt a sexualised performance art. Its a sport.

Undoubtedly it is a skill. Undoubtedly using similar talents and physical prowess to gymnastics. So if they want to be in the Olympics why not use those talents to become gymnasts?

I don't think it shames women for some of us to say that we don't think a 'sport' which was designed to titillate men and is used by strippers and sex workers is not necessary as an Olympic sport, when there are other, legitimate, sports which can showcase those skills.

Maisy, I didn't say you it was about shaking tits, I said it was clearly a type of performance linked to adult themes of sexuality, sensuality and eroticism. I compared the appropriateness of young girls taking part to the apprehensive I would have of them performing a rumba as well, something you can see on strictly every week. If it's going to be an olympic sport then eventually the medalists will get younger and younger as that's how the standards of sport increase.

Some images of the shared feats of flexibility and strength needed across disciplines doesn't change that. I already have an appreciation for how difficult it is, I don't need to go to a pole class myself to understand that. That doesn't change the above.

Poles are an essential part of most contemporarary circuses. They can be fixed or moving. Men and women use them, and there can be more than 1 performer at a time on the same pole. Some use ropes or ribbons to anchor themselves to the pole. Seeing someone basically free falling from a 15' foot pole to stop just before the ground by a length of ribbon is impressive.

If all you canthink of is grubby clubs you need to expand your views. There is nothing sexual about it.

There is an awful lot that should be culled from the Olympics in my view.

Just watched the video linked. What she is doing is nothing like the circus acts I was referring to. I don't like her stuff at all.

What you describe, Lass, is not what is shown in the OPs video.

It's not like gymnastics. It's similar in terms of skill to some elements of gymnastics but gymnasts are far more strong and flexible than pole dancers. The feats that gymnasts perform are a million levels above pole dancing.
Pole dancers don't need to wear such small bottoms even if they do need bare legs. They could wear shorts just as beach volleyball players could wear shorts.
Pole dancing is sexualised and it's impossible to divorce it from the strip club association.

No , I know having watched it. I was thinking of stuff like this which was stunning.

Sorry, cross post.

Although, the video you posted Lass, to me, is an artistic performance not a sport.