Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

[hipsterfun]

Victoria reinforces sexist ideas to undermine female athletes

and this is no different from asymmetric bars.

The one I linked to, Flown, is still the best of the alternative circuses I have seen.

The young woman on the pole was wearing a white cotton bodice style top and white cotton calf length "pirate style trousers". There is nothing remotely sexualised in her performance.

Although, the video you posted Lass, to me, is an artistic performance not a sport.

Yes it is. It wasn't presented as sport. It was a theatre performance.

So far as the Olympics and what is or isn't sport I personally have zero interest. I just think one can't hear the word "pole" and automatically start decrying it as phallic/ sexual/ degrading etc.

So far as the Olympics and what is or isn't sport I personally have zero interest. I just think one can't hear the word "pole" and automatically start decrying it as phallic/ sexual/ degrading etc.
I think pole is as worthy of being considered as gymnastics and figure skating. All are artistic disciplines which require a huge amount of strength and training. The idea that pole requires less is laughable (and shows little understanding of any of the disciplines).

If people object to pole being considered a sport because they feel it is too much of a performance discipline and they wpuld gladly see figure skating and gymastics removed then whilst I disagree with them, I respect their opinion.

I don't respect the view of 'figure skating and gymnastics are fine but not pole because I have my own personal prejudices'. It is nonsensical.

I'd happily remove ice dance (not all figure skating) and rhythmic gymnastics. Perhaps also synchronized swimming. They all have too much of a reliance on artistic interpretation for me. Artistic gymnastics (despite the name) has little dance/performance element apart from in the women's floor and the beam to some extent. I'd happily re-factor those to have less dance elements too.

It's incredibly difficult to do pole in clothes, your bare skin grips the pole and makes it much safer

The young woman in the video I posted had bare arms and feet but was otherwise wearing clothes she could have walked along any street with no one noticing. Her act also involved being up to 15 - 20 feet above the ground with no safety ropes, net or mattress.

It really is empowerfulization at it's most blatant.

Actually looking at it again her arms were covered to her forearm. She was using the strength of her hands and feet.

I don't mind pole dancing particularly but if the women are expected to dress in tiny outfits and the men in less revealing outfits then that answers you let question.
Volleyball got a bad rep for the same reasons.

On pole outfits.

You can buy some clothing that has grips built in e.g. gekko grip clothing or pole leggings
Generally most people train using their skin because that way you are building strength, not relying on grip.

I know an instructor who can hold some moves in jeans and a t shirt but ahe can't do a whole routine like that.

noble My battery died as I was replying to you. Sorry. I had put loads of links in showing different types of pole some are athletic, othera lyrical, some very sexual, some more floor work and spins, others very acrobatic.

Costumes will fit the discipline. E.g. I wouldn't wear exotic pole costumes because they are too sexual for the stuff I enjoy. I have friends who do train in that area and they love all the floor work and twerking and heels work but it's not my scene.

In a nutshell, you don't need pleasers (the big shoes) to do pole. The weight of them is helpful for counterbalancing some moves so i've heard but I've never got away with them.

So how do all those circus performers do their routines in non-skimpy costumes, which seem to be on higher poles and surely more dangerous? Don't they need the grip?

There’s a long list of sports trying to get into the Olympics. I’d be surprised if pole dancing would beat squash into the Olympics.

AssassinatedBeauty
Depends what their costumes are made of.
Depends where their contact points are.
Depends on their act.

E.g. At my studio I have only ever seen male dancers training in short tight shorts. If you look at a lot of the male pole dancers they tend to have trousers on but qe don't know the material. Lots of their routine moves are based on arm and core strength, whereas a lot of the female routines tend to be more flex based.

What performers or athletes wear is an aside issue and is a convenient argument for people to push their own prejudices against a discipline in my opinion.

If people wish to object to all artistic performance disciplines being counted as sports then I can respectfuly disagree.
If people just want to go on about the dangers of pole because they don't lile what women chose to wear when they train / perform (in quite clearly non sexual environments!) then I zone out.

There was no "side" to my question, I just was curious about the insistence on minimal clothes when there are so many videos online of people performing on poles (circus style) wearing a variety of outfits.

I have an issue with the sexualised origin of pole dancing and the sexualised performance. It would not be something I would be happy for a young girl to be doing, unlike gymnastics which has no sexual origin or sexualised component to its performance.

You've clearly never heard of gymnastic porn.

"What do female gymnasts wear? They have to wear high cut leotards with no pants. How is this any different?"

There are plenty of people who think that's wrong too.

So you are willing to concede some men get off on gymnastic porn and can’t see that some men will get off on pole dancing.

Nice logic.

AssassinatedBeauty
Ypu've asked a reasonable question (unlile others who have just decided it's some filthy sex dance). They were more general observations about the thread rather than your view.

I can do some invert moves with leggings on but I can't do anything needing to hang from my knee or inner thigh wearing leggings. It's far too slippy.

Most pole things you see have men abd women wearing shorts and nontop (men) or crop top (women). A pair of pole shorts probably covers more than some of the high leg leotards in gymnastics.

Obviously, some wear smaller outfits by choice. Each to their own. To me it is no different from women choosing their own outfits for athletics.

If you're putting a routine together then the costume has to fit what the performer can do. Skin grips best. Plus it also removes the need for having to decide which fabrics are ok vs not ok (I'd be guessing gekko grip wouldn't be ok in competitions).

ZooeyAndFranny
Some men get off on looking at feet.
Some men get off on women eating.

We don't police things because some men might find it a turn on.

Pole is a fitness discipline requiring strength, flexibility and agility. It requires training. For people to decide the way some have on this thread that because it CAN be sexual means it isn't a valuable discipline is hugely patronising and feels very much like a bunch of women telling other women how to be empowered correctly.

Assassinated - I've seen many alternative circus acts at the Edinburgh Fringe. They are always categorised as suitable for all ages and there will be children in the audience.

Much of what they do is terrifying to watch but does not involve nudity or skimpy costumes- occasionally men will be bare chested (I suppose for comfort and to show off muscle tone) The women tend to wear the sort of costumes ballet dancers wear in practice sessions ie. not particularly high cut leotards and those flippy short skater skirts- although "normal clothes" is a thing too.

I assume this is to emphasise their acts are about skill and strength not sex.

I was on a tread oncw where someone was earnestly arguing that any regulation of porn was suppressing an expression of women's sexuality.

"and feels very much like a bunch of women telling other women how to be empowered correctly"

Sometimes that is necessary. Not all choices women make are good for themselves or other women.

I find this topic fascinating, and, weirdly for someone who would be a contender for "angry feminist of the year" I have actually changed my view on certain types of pole dancing.

Gymnastics isnt a sexualised performance art. Its a sport.

Actually I disagree, but also agree (ahh confusing!)

I do think gymnastics in some ways and forms actually is sexualised performance art/dance.....like ballet can be.
I'm thinking mainly of the floor stuff, where the men's pieces are all acrobatics, but the womens involve fucking ribbons and balls and pointed toes, with provactive poses and tiny leotards.

BUT.......
"proper" pole dancing I think has more in comparison with those "street" gym things.... I can't for the life of me remember what it's called...not parcourt...that's the running around thing!
You know, all those muscle bound guys holding themselves sideways off of lamp posts?

My brothers girlfriend is who changed my mind.
She does pole dancing, as a competitive thing.
I have seen her routines, there is literally nothing, and I mean nothing in what she does that is remotely comparable to sleazy club dancing.

And btw (not that this should matter) she is a proper "hippy" type, who teaches yoga and is a very angry feminist type to boot.
She just happens to be very into gymnastic type things.

No flicking hair, no sexy gyrating moves, just sheer gymnastic strength, and amazing balance.
It is literally identical in moves and style to the thing I mentioned above, with the topless guys hanging off lamp posts.

I actually think it's really fucking sexist to basically assume it's just for sexiness.

You don't look at those guys on lamp posts and think it's about sex, you immediately assume it's about strength.

I think assuming all women pole dance (knowing what I know about the actual sport side of it) just for the male attention is really fucking shit. But I wan't to make it clear I AM NOT talking about clubs, I am talking about the sport side of it.

My feelings on pole dancing in a club context still stand.

I meant the non-circus kind of pole dancing Lass. I have no issue with circus skills and circus style pole work.

We don't police things because some men might find it a turn on

It's pole dancing. It is specifically designed as a turn on, that is literally its raison d'etre.

The faux naivety is annoying. We all know what pole dancing is and what it is for.

And in the sport context the pole is just the prop...again like those guys on lamp posts.

I think it's a better fucking prop than those stupid ribbon things in gymnastics.

I mean how sexist is that??!

"Oooh lets get the pretty, prepubescent looking (I know they are not, but that's often what they look like) woman to make pretty shapes with a ribbon, while made up to the nines and wearing a tiny costume"

Yep, nothing sexist about that!