Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

[hipsterfun]

Victoria reinforces sexist ideas to undermine female athletes

and this is no different from asymmetric bars.

If only faux upper-middle class piety were an Olympic sport.an excellent comment from the Guardian comments underneath the article.
I can't stand the Corens and their little coterie.

Brilliant. That sums up my thoughts on the article.

Lots of questions and debates to be had about whether it is a sport or an art form etc, but the sneering in that article is just wank fodder for the chattering classes to congratulate themselves on being awesome.

I guess the best way I can explain it is, when you are a young girl, and getting into things, what are the subtle messages you are bombarded with??

1. frequently from a very young age you are dressed in clothes that are totally unsuited to "rough play"/ runnning about etc.
2. (v important) sports like football/rugby at school are still "boys" sports...compare netball -standard "girls" sport at school (standing still a lot) with basketball - standard "boys" sport- more physical, running, dribbling etc.
3. girls are often reprimanded for rough and tumble that boys never get pulled up on
4. aprt from a token few, womens sport, especially the more "masculine" ones like football etc, is rarely covered, and definitely nowhere near the degree that mens is.
5. in the same vein, the "womens" sport that gets the most airtime is the more "feminine" stuff, and anything that women do that is traditionally "male", like golf, is still treated with an air of "Oh look what the little wimmin can do"
6. although thankfully getting rarer...there is still a sort of expectation that "naice" girls don't get physical or sweaty, or smell, or be muscular, or have physical prowess.

In the light of all this, is it any wonder that, subconciously, a girl might decide that the "lighter" version is the one for her??

Is it any wonder that a girl might choose pole dancing over street gym, when there are hardly any women publicly doing a really physical extreme sport, but millions doing other things, that in the right light are basially the same thing??

To add...when I was 16 , and really into BMX/ skateboarding....out of thousands of pros....there were literally only about 10 women, across both sports. If I'd been looking for a role model at the time, and not been confident enough in my own choices to do something that almost no women at all were doing publicly (pretty sure there were plenty actually riding, they just never got public space unless it was for a token reason) I'd have probably given up on it.

And even in 2017, women riding BMX, or mountain biking, or skateboarding, are still treated as abberations, rather than just cracking on with no comment, it still seems to be "awww, look, a little laydee riding a bike, isn't she great?".

I'm with Coren. Athletic & skillful but not a sport.

"If only faux upper-middle class piety were an Olympic sport. "

So having concerns about the sexually oppressive origins of pole dancing and a desire for women not to be perceived primarily as sex objects is upper middle-class piety?

So having concerns about the sexually oppressive origins of pole dancing The people who do competitive pole dancing start in fitness clubs not night clubs. I don't believe it's any different to other forms of gymnastics. They should change the name to something like 'pole gymnastics'.

for women not to be perceived primarily as sex objects The sportswear usually worn in many Olympic sports e.g. athletics, beach volleyball, etc are extremely skimpy but people don't see the athletes as 'sex objects'

If she raised any relevant points of concerns in an interesting way betrand then I might give her credit, but she doesn't.

What she does it take piss out of it being all you may think i would have all these views which i clearly do but no actually i don't at all. I am totally convinced by the experiences of people who pole but I'm clearly not and my sneery tone is oh so evident. In fact I am soooo sold on pole I'll take the piss some more by commenting on the athelticism of pillow fighting to get some cheap laughs from my snobby self-rightous readership.

No sensible critique of pole dance's origins.
No sensible discussion about why different feminist views may view the issue differently.
No sensible exploration of what pole fitneas is as a discipline today.
Just sneery piss taking.

We are fond on the feminist board of the saying "no choice is made in a vacum"
That's right, no choice is.

So we need to examine why women might make the choice of pole "dancing" over street gym.
About why women need to label something that is essentially the same as a male sport, as a "sexy" thing, in order to justify doing it.

Whatever people's personal views are on pole i think we all agree that there is a massive differenve between people training in pole as a fitness and artistic discipline and training in erotic pole dance for strip clubs.

Oh absolutely agree.

It''s not necessarily about the clothes women wear to do it, it's about it's origins, and how it is perceived.

I'm with Coren on this. But it does come across as a sneery piece, which is a shame.

Oh and I think we need to examine why official gymnastics like the stupid ribbon routine is fine, but gymnastic pole work is not.

When you compare the two directly, taking out prejudice against the sleazy "club" style pole dancing, the "pretty, twirly" ribbon stuff, or the "throwing a glittery ball in the air and catching it between shaved and pointed legs" routines, are so, so much more sexist than "woman uses physical strength to hold her whole body weight horizontally off the floor for ages".

It''s not necessarily about the clothes women wear to do it, it's about it's origins, and how it is perceived

And its origins are circus , not strip clubs. Be as angry as you like it was appropriated by the sex"industry" but do not denigrate the skills and artistry of those operating outwith porn.

Oh and I think we need to examine why official gymnastics like the stupid ribbon routine is fine, but gymnastic pole work is not.
Yes.

I like the one with the 2 bars. I forget what it's called.

Why do hardly any women participate in "extreme" or "street" sports??

Is it because they don't want to??
Or is it because it was never really presented to them as an option?
Is it because from a very young age, it is impressed upon those with a vagina that everything from climbing trees, to kicking a ball, to climbing mountains or throwing yourself off a vert ramp on a tiny bit of wood, is not "what you do"?

When I was at school (and I'm only in my 30's!) to want to play rugby, or football, or ride a BMX, or skate was to declare yourself as weird, and frequently there was no provision for it, no girls rugby teams, or even mixed sex.

I think women are turning to this stuff, because they still live in a society where hanging sideways off a lamp post doing gymnastics, as a woman, is pretty much unthinkable.

When other girls/women saw me BMXing in the street, say, jumping a set of steps, the first comment would almost always be "but what if you scar your face??!" They never, ever said that to the many blokes I was riding with.
Says a lot, I think, about women and sport.

I think you're being very judgemental and sexist about sports you don't like, like rhythmic gymnastics. It's not my cup of tea at all, and I think it's a dance discipline not a sport, so I'd remove it from the olympics. It's like ballet and modern dance, which are great activities but not sport.

Pole dancing is also not a sport. It's a dance discipline. It's great exercise no doubt and I'm glad lots of women enjoy it as exercise if that's their choice. I also think that to ignore its history and continuing use in strip clubs is wrong. I find that problematic and it's not a hobby I would encourage girls/women to do.

@LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle your points about why girls and women are turned away from physical activity are well known by most feminists. This is why girls/women continue with things like dance/ballet where they might drop other sports. I don't see how pole dancing is a special case.

I think you're being very judgemental and sexist about sports you don't like, like rhythmic gymnastics. It's not my cup of tea at all, and I think it's a dance discipline not a sport, so I'd remove it from the olympics. It's like ballet and modern dance, which are great activities but not sport

Indeed. I can agree with Lana's points up to the disparaging comments about rhythmic gymnastics.

Is it because from a very young age, it is impressed upon those with a vagina that everything from climbing trees, to kicking a ball, to climbing mountains or throwing yourself off a vert ramp on a tiny bit of wood, is not "what you do"?

I don't know where you went to school but other than football, sport, including indoor rock climbing, was forced on me and every other girl for at least 3 hours every bloody week until my 6th year at secondary.

(As an aside I'm so fed up of this mantra of climbing trees as being the holy grail of childhood activties)

"And its origins are circus , not strip clubs. Be as angry as you like it was appropriated by the sex"industry" but do not denigrate the skills and artistry of those operating outwith porn"

I'm not denigrating the skills and artistry - I think they are amazing.

But it is impossible to deny it's links with the sex industry. And everybody watching it is aware of those links. And if it really is all about strength why don't men do it? (Yes, I know some do)

I think you're being very judgemental and sexist about sports you don't like, like rhythmic gymnastics. It's not my cup of tea at all, and I think it's a dance discipline not a sport, so I'd remove it from the olympics. It's like ballet and modern dance, which are great activities but not sport.

No, I'm really, really not being sexist about it.
I'm pointing out that some people on this thread have compared it unfavourably with "official" olympic gymnastics, and having experienced sport "pole dancing" first hand, I can hand on heart say that the pole gymnastics are a million times less sexist than the womens floor routines.

And I agree with you that the rhythmic gym stuff is totally not "sport".
However "sport" is subjective in itself.
It's only v recently that BMX has been officially recognised as a sport, despite needing years of "training", a heck of a lot of skill, and a massive amount of "balls" to pull off, yet riding round and round an indoor track on a v expensive bike has been an olympic sport for years!

It is literally street gym for women, and much more "sporty" imo than a lot of olympic sports, like ping pong.

I also think that to ignore its history and continuing use in strip clubs is wrong. I find that problematic and it's not a hobby I would encourage girls/women to do.

And I have specfically said that part of the problem with discussing this issue is what we are calling it/what women feel they can do.

Pole "dancing" as my bro's g/f does it, is identical to street gym stuff, no sex, sexiness, gyrating or hair flicking.
It would never occur to her to do what the men who are doing exactly the same moves do, which is do it publicly.
It would never even cross her mindthat she could do what they do.

And that's the issue.
That women can't do something men do without having to do it somewhere else/ call it something else.

It is getting better thankfully, more women than ever weight lift/play football/rugby etc.

But it's still shit and with the trans thing it's getting worse again.

Bertrand have you ever seen pole performers? Because your comment says to me that you haven't. And men do it too.

I don't know how any one could look at the link I posted (and youtube is packed with similar)and think "reminds me of a strip club"

I'm aware my last post was garbled and a bit contradictory btw!

I'm finding it hard to explain what I mean.

I think

1. we need to seperate what we (rightly!) think about pole dancing as tittilation from what is, essentially, hard core gymnastics
2. we need to look at why something that is a "sport" for men, and lauded by evevryone, is having to operate under a shitty sexist banner of "pole dancing"-with all its obvious connotations, for women.
3. we need to look at why women, even when superficially offered a "fair" choice, still don't feel confident enough to choose to do something that is percieved as more physical.

I am totally not minimising the historical/political/societal connotations of pole dancing.
What I am trying to do, is explore why we can't seperate (and that includes the women who do it) the sleazy/sexual stuff, from what is essentially really amazing gymnastics.
And how we see the lamppost guys in comparison.