Second Coren disappointment of the weekend

[hipsterfun]

Victoria reinforces sexist ideas to undermine female athletes

and this is no different from asymmetric bars.

lass
Let me put it to you this way.
Last week i was learning a move. It was hard work and demanding wearing shorts and crop top. I slipped and managed to bruise all my inner thigh. If i had been wearing leggings then I wouldn't have been able to attempt it at all.

Wearing shorts and a crop top has absolutely fuck all to do with sex.

I'm fed up with people on this thread who have never tried it standing on soapboxes explaining their enlightened views on the clothing choices if people who do.

For emphasis. My decision to wear gym shorts and a crop top has NOTHING at all to do with sex.

betrand There are many, many issues with the porn industry.
But if a woman freely made an informed decision to do a porn film then it is not place to arrogantly decide what is best for her.

Now if a woman is coerced, vulnerable, exploited, trafficked etc then absolutely they cannot give free, informed consent and it should be dealt with severly.

But if a woman freely made an informed decision to do a porn film then it is not place to arrogantly decide what is best for her

Nobody can make a free informed consent without outside influence. It's impossible.

"But if a woman freely made an informed decision to do a porn film then it is not place to arrogantly decide what is best for her."

I can "arrogantly" decide what's best for me and other women though. And that is her not supporting an industry where many women are abused and exploited and which perpetuates a societal view of women as sex objects.

The women that disagree with you are not trying to police your actions. You can do what you like - if you find it individually empowering, good exercise, a fun activity that's good for you. But if the discussion is on a feminist board, surely pole dancing as a manifestation of female empowerment is going to be subjected to feminist analysis.

Just because you are a woman and are performing it, doesn't mean it's an act of female liberation - nor is the weight of liberation on your shoulders to sort out. We could have a feminist thread on the corruption of 'feminine purity' and narrow sex-defined roles in classical ballet. It doesn't mean you are prejudiced against any ballerina.

And here we go, women deciding what is best for other women.

Nobody can make a free informed consent without outside influence. It's impossible.
In which case lets not have any decisions being made. Women are so powerless that we don't know our own minds and are incapable of making any decisions on our own bodies.
Woman wants boob job? No sorry you can't make thay decision freely. You've only decided on a boob job because of all this social pressure and the media and that means it is a bad decision. The entire cosmetic surgery industry is about making women better for men so you shouldn't have a boob job because you can't actually give free consent to it. Total bollocks.

You can decide what is best for you.
I can decide what is best for me.
We can have our own personal views on an industry.

I personally have zero desire to do porn. I think it's seedy. I would also never make any at home porn with DH either.

But it is absolutely not my place to tell another woman that she is incapable of making the decision to make an at home video with her DP.

We all live in a society and are socialised. It doesn't mean someone has the right to tell me i can't choose what I do in the bedroom, my access to contraception, abortion, how i dress etc because 'you might have views influenced by society'.

The idea that there's a hierarchy of acceptable views/ideas for women to hold doea my head in. It's a bit like people telling SAHM that they aren't real feminjsts because they didn't chose it.

Are you really comparing this to Giles Coren defending a sex offender?
They are siblings but not the same person, they disagree fundamentally it seems.

Let me put it to you this way

Let me put it to you this way- I don't recall circus performers I have seen on poles, ropes, high trapezes wearing the sort of skimpy costumes the performers in pole dancing competitions wear.

hingedspeculum
The history is worth discussing. The different genres of pole are worth discussing. Whether artistic disciplines have a place in the olympics is worth discussing.

Equally, listening to people who do the sport is worth having instead of people being wound up because 'women might wear skimpy outfit'.

To me, at least, feminism is women being able to choose the sports they participate in without people who don't do it telling them their activewear choices are about sex.

I feel people have got their idea of 'pole has sexual origins therefore it must be challenged' and are more interested in feeling smug and enlightened than actually learning about the dicipline as it exists today.

This
And Victoria just gave her dickhead brother a masterclass in how to use irony
Thought it was a great article.

And also this
I'm fed up with people on this thread who have never tried it standing on soapboxes explaining their enlightened views on the clothing choices if people who do.

I do gymnastics sport at 41 and I would live to be confident enough to wear a Leo or crop top and gym shorts because it's is much more comfortable and easier to do the moves in.

No flicking hair, no sexy gyrating moves, just sheer gymnastic strength, and amazing balance
It is literally identical in moves and style to the thing I mentioned above, with the topless guys hanging off lamp posts

I actually think it's really fucking sexist to basically assume it's just for sexiness

You don't look at those guys on lamp posts and think it's about sex, you immediately assume it's about strength

I agree. That is exactly the point I have been trying to make re circus acts. I never said it was about sex- quite the opposite but the performers don't act sexily or wear sexy skimpy clothing.

I really honestly think that pole "dancing" in it's sport form should be renamed.
Like I said, when you take away the provacative "dance" moves, what you are left with is literally the indoor version of street gym stuff.

If you took the "dancing" out of the title, and called it something else, it would happily slot in with the bars and stuff in gymnastics.

After all, it won't just be women will it?
It'll be all those amazing male gymnasts who balance themselves on lamp posts as well.

IMO the reason why pole "dancing" has become a sport for women is because they feel they can't join in the street gym stuff....lets face it, you hardly ever see girls doing parcourt etc.

Maybe if those new "street" sports (I used to be a serious BMXer btw, I know what I'm talking about) were more open to girls and women in the first place, they wouldn't need to join pole "dancing" clubs to do what is basically the same thing.

Sometimes [a bunch of women telling other women how to be empowered correctly] is necessary. Not all choices women make are good for themselves or other women.

Good to know you’ve got my back, Bertrand.

I feel people have got their idea of 'pole has sexual origins therefore it must be challenged'

I assume it originated in circus, got appropriated by strip clubs and it is modern circus which is taking it back.

Lana, a lot of people do just call it pole.

"But it is absolutely not my place to tell another woman that she is incapable of making the decision to make an at home video with her DP."

Not mine either. How is that relevant?

lass
You have zero intention of actually considering the experiences of people who DO train in this area.

I have just outlined to you the practical dificulties surrounding a move i have been working on and all you can say is 'but i went to a circus...'

I have already said, what someone wears depends on their discipline, the routine, the fabric they make their costumes out of, whether they have any grip stick put onto their body/clothes, what their contact points are, whether the apparatus is spinning or not, where their own strengths/weaknesses are.

E.g. someone at my studio has an awesome routine and she does it all wearing leggings because it's almost all arm strength in that routine with limited hooking and no side grip required.
When she does a different routine she wears nike pros and a shorter vest top because she needs thigh grip and a bit of side grip.
Most of us train in leggings for warm ups and spins and then shorts and crop top for moves. (Hardly 'skimpy' - which oddly is only ever used in judgement of what a woman wears when other women don't approve)

Some people wear really small outfits. It's not for me but good for them.

No choices are truly free and I think it would be interesting to examine why some professional women are choosing to take up pole-dancing as a hobby over other hobbies that don't have a background of male titillation. Telling your male friends that you've taken up country dancing or karate or marathon running won't get the same reaction.

"You have zero intention of actually considering the experiences of people who DO train in this area."

You do realize that people can do a lot of thinking and considering and still disagree with you, don't you?

For some people, the hair on your head has a background of male titillation, but fuck that.

BertrandRussell
Because that's at home porn creation. Its a woman and her DP deciding to create pornographic content.

As long as they are happy then i couldnt give a damn.
Same if a woman chooses to do glamour modelling or swim modelling. Same if they choose to do beauty pageants (which i absolutely hate and find creepy). They're all part of society but if someone wants yo then they can go for it.

I find often on any thread linked with women and sexuality there is a sense of 'smart women know thia world view and anyone who does/thinks the opposite is just silly and needs to see the error of their ways'

I agree with you Maisy, the history of pole dancing, how it exists in society etc are all things should be discussed. Along with everything else that feminist scholars, or any researchers and academics of any other particular discipline do all day. They are exploring and interrogating the whys and ways things exist around them.

No one is targeting your own individual experience or what you can't do what you want to do. No one thinks that they know better about your life.

When you extrapolate that individual experience into a wider of act of female liberation or empowerment (by virtue of it being in the name of feminism) then you can expect there to be a discussion about it. This is where I think we disagree because you see it as an individual attack on the woman and the choices they are making. How else do we evaluate the society we live in through a feminist lens (or whatever academic discipline) if not by exploring how men and women behave and what they do?

And as i said above (sorry to repeat myself!) I actually think there are aspects of "proper" gymnastics that are waaaayyy more problematic than sport pole "dancing".

Because mens and womens gymnastics are fucking different.

We don't get the men to prance about waving a ribbon, or flinging glittery balls in the air.

The mens side is always just about strength and poise, the womens always has an aspect of "feminine" "prettiness" and stylised moves that the mens just doesn't include.

I mean, come on, if it was legitimate gymnastics both sexes would do it, but the floor stuff is just "young looking" women dancing about in a sexually provocative manner, right?

So what makes that better than sport pole work, that includes no sexy moves whatsoever?

noble
The reaction from male friends has been 'cool' and 'my mate shared a video of rugby players trying it and failing. Apparently it's more difficult than you think'

No different to other sports in my experiece.
Only negative comments I have had have been from women. Others at the studio say the same.
A guy who does it had a few comments about him doing a girls sport but that's sadly expected (& he would have had the same if he did ballet)

You do realize that people can do a lot of thinking and considering and still disagree with you, don't you?
Yes.
They can have whatever view they lile about pole.
Suggesting that women train in crop top and shorts because it links to sex however is just utter garbage.
As is trying to suggest people who say (with experience) that skin helps grip are wrong.

Maisy you can lecture me all you like. It does not alter the fact there are many , many circus acts doing the sort of acts we are talking about who realise the demographics of their audience and getting as many people as possible through the door mean wearing skimpy, sexy clothes is not an option.

Maybe the woman in the video I linked is just more talented as stripping down to micro knickers wasn't necessary.

With you on that lana.
I did gymnastics throughout my youth and there was a huge focus on having 'pretty feet' and 'suck and tuck' and being very girly and prim. The praise was all about how pretty we looked, hair was always very little girl like etc.

If I compare that to my pole group. We get told to 'activate your glutes for stability', 'point your toes', 'rotate that leg'. The praise we get is like 'nice one. That looks strong', 'love that. You looked so secure'

The language between the two classes is noticeable.
As a girl my experienve of gymnastics was to look pretty, thin, flexible and young.
As a woman in a pole class my experience is women of all sizes yelling 'shit I'm going!!' and lots of peer to peer encouragement about getting better and stronger.

This is where I think we disagree because you see it as an individual attack on the woman and the choices they are making.
I don't so much see it as an individual attack. I just think that perhaps people get too focused on what they inherently don't like about an issue that they see everything about it like that. Sometimes I feel some feminist chats stray into women deciding what is best for other women (e.g. i had a uni tutor who couldn't get her head around the fact that some women choose to be SAHP. In her head the idea anyone would do it only proved how naive these women were. We had many a heated discussion about this).