Boys can enter girls' dormitories at state boarding school

[pisacake]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transgender-boys-to-board-withgirls-at-gordons-school-qrllwztm3

"Gordon’s School in Woking, Surrey, is drawing up guidance for pupils saying they can ask to wear the uniform of the opposite sex, be addressed by a different name and/or pronouns, use gender-neutral ­lavatories, grow their hair long if they are boys, change their accommodation and wear make-up and jewellery."

Note that the uniform policy says:

www.gordons.surrey.sch.uk/uniform

"Make-up and nail varnish are both not allowed. This includes all make-up.
Girls are only allowed one earring in the lobe of each ear – no other piercings are allowed. With the exception of the above rule, jewellery is not allowed."

So it appears they are allowing make-up in order to cater for boys who want to dress up as girls. Line edited by MNHQ

"The school said it had acted because it had “become aware of students who would ‘come out’ after leaving the school”. It wanted pupils to feel safe to do so while still in their care."

Being safe obviously means allowing boys to sleep in the girls dormitories which are supposed to be safe spaces for girls who may be thousands of miles from their parents (most boarders are army children).

"The Boarding Schools’ Association has issued guidance to schools saying that if a boy intends to change gender he should be offered the chance to sleep in the girls’ dormitory and vice versa."

"Not all parents are happy about such changes. On Friday, parents at Highgate, a coeducational London private day school, received a letter from the head teacher, Adam Pettitt, apologising for the introduction of gender-neutral lavatories. Some younger pupils, he admitted, had felt “less comfortable and happy at school” as a result.

Highgate brought in the lavatories “to support gender-fluid pupils”, only for parents to ask if the change was “proportionate” given how few such students were at the school."

Really?

www.gordons.surrey.sch.uk/augusta

" Years 7–10 are in dormitories in the Main House and Years 11-13 in 2 bedded study bedrooms in the extension. "

Also

"Visiting parents should report to House staff before seeing their child. Men may not go into girls’ dormitories.
 Boys are not allowed in the bedroom area of girls’ houses and girls are not allowed in the bedroom areas of boys’ houses."
www.gordons.surrey.sch.uk/_files/PDF%20Files/School%20Policies/Boarding%20Guides/B5A810DFC308702419A18D2C8A74F225.pdf

So they toss safeguarding out the window. How can they say 'men' cannot go into girls' dormitories when they no longer recognise basic biology?

As I suspect OP, you are here to bang your drum, not to listen to facts.

"The most at risk child here is the trans child, in terms of mental health, in terms of abuse, in terms of educational outcome."

Really? Where have all these trans children come from? They weren't around 20 years ago.

Why are so many children suddenly trans? It's a delusion or a fad in most cases.

"The most at risk child here is the trans child, in terms of mental health, in terms of abuse, in terms of educational outcome."

That simply is not true.

poppl, you're very much mistaken if you think women on here don't care about the welfare of children. On the contrary, one of the reasons a lot of posters here are gender critical is because of concerns over child welfare. Such as: what are the links between gender non conformity and autism? And eating disorders? and sexual abuse? Where is the evidence that the affirming approach to gender non conforming young people is the best approach? Where is the research on the potential harm that social identification as the opposite sex might have? Where is the research on the outcomes and side effects of attempting to medically transition youth using powerful drugs off label? What happens if they change their minds? What harm does it do young people to encourage them to believe that they can change sex when they cannot?

it seems to me that it's you who has the black and white view here: that a child who says they are transgender actually becomes the opposite sex.

OP I'm sorry but I'm not going to engage directly with you because I can't see anything in your posts except personal prejudice.

Objectively speaking, statistically, a trans person is more likely to be the victim of violence, mental health disorders and poor outcomes than either cis male or female people.

Thank you poppl. I can see that there is a level of frustration at the situation that must come across in some posts (although I do try to avoid the word hysteria when talking about women as it's one that men use repeatedly to dismiss women's legitimate concerns).

Teachers are very good at persisting working with adolescents when they indulge in self harming behaviour - anorexia, sex with adults, alcohol, even the extremes of online grooming by religious zealots encouraging adolescents to join terrorist organisations. For all these young people, we talk, share concerns and refer. But for transgender children, we are collectively silent - even when we can see them breast binding, taking puberty blockers and being 'groomed ' online by those without their interests a heart.
Why is this? How has this happened?
That's not hysteria - it's factual.

"It's a delusion or a fad in most cases"

Really? Know them personally, do you?

I get all that Sophocles, but it doesn't actually help me when my first trans child attends interview.

It's all very well but I need to decide what to actually do, on the ground, with the actual trans child sitting in front of me. And telling them that it's all in their head is not exactly appropriate.

poppl
What are the statistics that you are using re transgender children and safety? It's just that I have looked at some of the training and statistics that the transgender activist organisations are using - and much of it is inaccurate and plain wrong! I do wonder whether a lot of teachers are (quite understandably) using this data to inform their views?
It's not until you actually go to the source of this information that you discover this?

The most at risk child here is the trans child

I agree, if that child is female to male and placed in the boys dorm.

Poppl what would you propose doing if a student approached you mid term coming out as trans and asking to be accomodated?
I can imagine that would be an incredibly different situation for everyone involved.

I admit I haven't been to the source information theend. I don't disagree with what you are saying. It's appalling practice and as I said before, not in the best interests of either the trans child or the rest of the student body.

In the same way that gay men are more likely to be beaten up on a night out, I don't think it's hard to believe that trans children are more likely to be bullied or suffer mental health issues.

in the same way that gay men are more likely to be beaten up on a night out

Are they?

telling them that it's all in their head is not exactly appropriate.

Sure. But neither is denying that biology exists. And as you said upthread, you need to balance the needs of all the children in your care. That's all that being gender critical means in this case - not accepting that women and girls' needs for privacy, protection and sex segregation are necessarily subordinate to the needs of a trans person.

It's not hysterical to push back on the multiple, multiplying instances where sex segregation is being dismantled before our eyes as in this case. It's this case today - and tomorrow it will be something different, and the day after that, another small change. And then - pfffffft! - no sex segregation at all, ever. And many women don't want that.

poppl
Re the child in front of you. You will do what you always do - listen, ask questions, be kind and respectful. However, what you must have is guidance from above - a school policy to guide the boundaries of what is acceptable.
At the moment there is no national guidance. The activist organisations have stepped into the vacuum and provided 'guidance'. The challenge is that this fails to take account of the, at times, competing needs of other children. This must change but it's quite a task getting the powers that be to acknowledge the rights of girls to privacy, safety and dignity. (wonder why that is?)
So at the moment everyone is navigating their way through this.
This website offers a wealth of ideas and suggestions:
www.transgendertrend.com/schools/

Brienchon it would be very difficult. We'd have to find a pretty quick interim solution, and in order to help us with this we'd refer to outside agencies.

I think it would really depend on the child and the parents. We could do any of the following:

keep the child where they were pending reports, if the child was happy with this

send the child home in the interim with work emailed through

isolate the child in a spare bedroom or area where it would be appropriate. This obviously depends on the layout of the school and type of boarding house.

certainly speak to the rest of the students sensitively about any concerns they may have

Minefield, definitely. Not having any formal guidance doesn't bloody help! We'd have to treat it like any other safeguarding concern I imagine.

Thank you for that link theend. I'll certainly have a look when I'm back on the laptop.

"Really? Know them personally, do you? hmm"

Trans is very cultural. I had a trans friend (male-to-female) in an Islamic country, in Islam trans is preferable to homosexuality; he moved to a Hindu area where trans wasn't accepted, and he now presents as an (effeminate) gay male.

There is a trend at the moment towards the Islamic model, and away from the Western liberal 'you can be what you want' approach. So girls and boys are being taught that if they don't fit a hideous stereotype of their natal sex, then they are somehow not of that sex at all.

It's a load of crap and we shouldn't be encouraging it in schools.

Boys can sign up for Food Tech GCSE, they can have can relationships with other boys, they can grow their hair long, but none of that makes them a girl.

Objectively speaking, statistically, a trans person is more likely to be the victim of violence, mental health disorders and poor outcomes than either cis male or female people

That is untrue. Women are murdered and assaulted at a far higher rate than trans people: link. Not only that, but most violence against trans people is against people involved in the sex trade - very wrong, of course, but highly situation-specific. As the link shows, being trans is much safer than being a woman.

Please don't use the term 'cis' btw. I don't identify as cis and neither do most of the other posters on here. No doubt you want us to respect how trans people self-identify. We expect the same courtesy in return.

Yes, trans children are likely to suffer mental health issues. As 'trans' is usually alongside a variety of mental health problems

People on this board really do care about the kids. What I disagree with, is telling children that changing sex is possible, or that conforming to stereotypes usually associated with the opposite sex means they ARE the opposite sex. I think without parents/internet influence, the majority of 'trans kids' would not be saying they were trans at all, as they are simply kids who like wearing dresses, or playing with dolls (in the case of transgirls). I think the majority of kids with gender dysphoria grow out of it during/after puberty (this is not a controversial opinion...both feminists and trans-advocates agree on this) and setting them on the road to transition is both dangerous and irresponsible. And I disagree with puberty blockers completely, in cases of trans kids. As they are not reversible and harmless as certain organizations would have you believe.

Finally, I think in certain areas of life, sex does matter. 'Gender' does not matter in ANY area of life, as gender is just personality and dress sense.

I don't think you can speak for everyone on this thread Selma.

Cis is a widely accepted way to describe what I meant and was the right term to use within what I was saying. I make no apology.

poppl
To be honest, I have seen so much poor mental health and bullying in schools that I don't see any one group as at the 'top' of that shameful list.
Transgender activists (sorry, that's such a clunky phrase) regularly quote some misleading statistics about suicide and trans. Now of course these children are vulnerable and likely to be suffering from mental health problem.
But the Samaritans have some very strong guidelines about reporting about suicide and using statistics. This is the media guidance they produce about reporting:
www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-reporting-suicide/advice-journalists-suicide-reporting-dos-and-donts
It's worth a read.
I just find it interesting that transgender organisations cheerfully ignore this guidance and repeatedly share misleading statistics about suicide with teachers (and I fear with adolescents) without any hesitation.
And that's why I am so sceptical about where their best interests lie.

One of my jobs is working for a religious institution trying to update inclusion policy. I also have a medical background. I deal with lots of groups such as lesbian, gay and bi support groups, disability support groups, race and ethnic minority groups and many more. The only group who have told me my medical degree is "invalid" are the trans advocates, who told me (and my colleagues who do the job full time rather than my 2 days a week) they couldn't and wouldn't discuss the difference between sex and gender - in terms of access to facilities and specific groups because it is transphobic and hurtful for them to do so. It is complete lock down.

We also work with schools to form inclusion policies with them. The schools listen to what we have to say on disability, race, sexuality, mental health, eating disorders but they have been directly contacted by trans groups and feel they don't need to listen (and it is a discussion rather than a firm set of rules) to us on this matter.

Many many people here reject the term 'cis'.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2679752-Banning-the-term-cis

Why do you not respect people's right to their own identity?