The UK is officially an intolerant hellhole for transwomen

[pisacake]

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/12/british-transgender-woman-given-residency-in-safer-new-zealand

"The tribunal deemed it would be “unduly harsh” for the woman to be forced to return to the UK, where she suffered years of “persecution” due to her gender identity disorder. "

In pleading for the woman to be allowed to remain in New Zealand, her lawyer, Kar-yen Partington, presented 20 articles to the tribunal detailing transphobic hate crimes in the UK.

Recent data from the UK shows transphobic hate crimes against LGBTQ people have soared by nearly 80% in the last four years, with more than one in five LGBT people being the victim of a hate crime in last 12 months.

Just seriously curious if (actual) women have ever been granted asylum for being subject to harassment, which in some countries is very extreme. Or is this more trans privilege?

Like, stonewall riots were started by trans women,

A lot of LGB people apparently see that as revisionism. The people concerned didn't identify as "trans" in the modern sense.

Lots of people are a minority, and want to be accepted. It doesn't make them a member of the LGB community.

Though plenty of fringe communities are vying to be included under the "queer" umbrella. Some I've seen are furries, adult babies, BDSMers and even paedophiles.

As well as all manner of heterosexual sparklegenders such as demisexual, aromantic etc.

It's basically a meaningless term. Many LGB people hate it.

Brendan O'Neill is an utter wanker a lot of the time but he's bang on the money when it comes to the transcult:

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/08/theres-a-simple-reason-why-the-stonewall-trailer-doesnt-feature-more-transwomen-of-colour/

MillicentFawcett

Bloody hell. That was a breath of fresh air.

Yet if anyone’s messing with history, it’s these historically illiterate trans blatherers.

Where the first gay radicals wanted to break free of identity — by refusing to be a typical bloke or girl — today’s deviants are determined to return to the prison of identity, dreaming up utterly fixed, unquestionable, sometimes medically enhanced identities for themselves to live in and live by. And if the rest of us refuse to genuflect before their sainted identity, we’ll be branded transphobes and elbowed out of polite society

Eresh demisexual people are not heterosexual (you can't be xsexual and also ysexual at the same time). Aromantic people may well be heterosexual, because it's a romantic attraction (or lack of one) but that doesn't negate that they are also aro. You're actually being quite rude.

Thankfully, for the most part, the Queer community is pretty accepting...and those that are not make up a tiny minority of it.

I'm not sure that things like BDSM or other kinks make someone queer, but then I wouldn't presume to tell someone they 'aren't allowed' to ID as queer if that's how they feel...because that's not a nice thing to do.

loopsdefruit

You seem to be quite familiar with the terms. Can I ask you a question? How does this sort of identity come up in conversation, if at all?

Datun Brendan O'Neill...really? The guy who campaigns against same-sex marriage, and wants abuse victims to shut up? He's really the person we should listen to regarding LGBT history...as opposed to the people that were either actually there, or have done extensive study on the events.

I'm sure some LGB people do want to pretend that trans people weren't crucial to the development of Gay Rights, but that doesn't make them right or even especially reasonable.

datun like...oh hey, I'm asexual/demisexual/gay/bi/pan etc... just the same way you'd tell someone you were gay or straight. Sexuality is often a crucial part of someone's identity, and super relevant to their interactions with other humans re: dating or relationships, or just in how they interact with the world.

Like, you'd put you were ace or demi or aro or whatever in a dating profile, because it's important for other people to know that, the same way you'd put if you were gay or anything other than straight. It's about what you'd expect from another person in a relationship, and what they could expect from you.

Also having people assume you are straight isn't the best, that's why people come out, and why coming out is necessary at all. I'm sure one day it won't be, but at least for now it is.

loops

Ok. So it's more within the framework of the possibility of a relationship, rather than something you would just say in a neutral social setting?

Yes, and yes Brendan O'Neill is a wanker, but I agreed with his article.

The Stonewall riots are a massive bone of contention between TRAs and other people in the LGBT community, from what I have read.

And I have zero faith that TRAs do not rewrite history. They regularly purloin women from the past who were forced to disguise themselves as male in order to access education/jobs, as being trans.

That was a long running thread on here here a few months ago listing them.

And I do agree that it is a mistake to assume someone's sexual orientation. I can see how it is a constant irritation for people who are not heterosexual.

demisexual people are not heterosexual (you can't be xsexual and also ysexual at the same time). Aromantic people may well be heterosexual, because it's a romantic attraction (or lack of one) but that doesn't negate that they are also aro

According to the urban dictionary
Demisexuals are characterized by a lack of sexual attraction toward any person unless they become deeply emotionally or romantically connected with a specific person or persons. The level of connection it takes for sexual desire to form is dependent on how close the relationship is rather than initial attraction. It is an orientation that is not chosen

Why does that preclude being heterosexual?

As for the other things you mention- really who cares apart from the individuals concerned?

Datun I guess? I am currently living in a house with 4 straight housemates, we don't really talk about it, although I have mentioned that I'm ace as an 'understand me better' sort of thing. Last year I lived with 3 other people who were various shades of not straight (one bisexual, one aro ace, one ace/unsure, and me ace/lesbian) we would talk about it all the time haha it was kind of a big part of how we interacted with the world, gay jokes, gay media, eyeroll about the straights (not in a mean way), memes, just rainbow glitter sparkles on everything haha

Fair enough, I'd struggle to take him seriously on anything but I would be open to reading more from people who aren't so awful lol

And I do agree that it is a mistake to assume someone's sexual orientation. I can see how it is a constant irritation for people who are not heterosexual

Well yes but in reality unless one is actually considering having sex with someone else does one in reality actually make that assumption?

As for ace or demi or aro or whatever in a dating profile, because it's important for other people to know that - personally, yes it would be useful to know but probably not for the reasons loop would think.

lass it precludes it the same way that a bisexual person in a relationship with someone of a different sex to themselves does not 'become heterosexual'. Demisexual people are still demisexual even in a relationship with someone of a different sex to themselves.

I guess you could say who cares about anyone else, and any orientation. I don't 'care' what orientation my friends are, but I care about them and if they want to tell me/talk about it then that's fine with me. It matters to them, it's important to them.

Also ace people (as an example) often still want relationships (even marriage, babies, romance) and there often aren't enough ace people who want those things to neatly pair off, so ace people end up in relationships with sexual people and then their asexuality becomes really important in setting boundaries and making it work.

Aromantic for instance. I suppose it's useful to put a label upfront to let people know that although you might well have sex with them, you'll never fall in love. Despite it probably decreasing your dating pool.

It's the sort if thing that one might only find out a few months in and possibly get resentful over wasted investment.

What I don't understand is how it's a talking point.

But since it is, it is.

Datun I'm not aro...I don't think, but I do know that being ace/aro can hugely impact relationships that aren't 'dating' as well. When society tells you that friendships are different to relationships, and are less important than relationships, it's SO hard to figure out boundaries when you don't have an inner differentiation. Like, where is the line between friend and more-than-friend, when the line for most people is sexual or romantic feelings. So in that sense it's good to talk about it, so people in your life understand why sometimes you might get the lines wrong.

Also, when you don't experience it, the world being as 'sexual' as it is can be pretty confusing/funny, and that's sometimes nice to talk about with other people who get it :)

You're actually being quite rude.

Yes, probably. I hope it conveys the contempt I feel for the ideological belief system of these self obsessed completely unique individuals.

No one can say who can call themselves "queer"? No gatekeeping? Then it's meaningless. And many, not the minority you think, dislike the term and the idea that straight people have to be included. Are you in your teens? There is a world outside tumblr.

Sorry. I know other posters are engaging with you. I just have no patience for this utter utter ludicrous bullshit.

Eresh I'm 26, and I'm asexual, I have friends who are also in their 20s who are ace and aro...I promise none of us are 'straight'. Ofc there is a world outside of tumblr, being asexual has always been around, and has been understood for decades, significantly longer than tumblr lol (but god, imagine a place where young people feel accepted and not broken, how awful).

I've never experienced gate-keeping at LGBT events like Pride, or at groups (thankfully). I see it on twitter, although for the most part nobody cares about me cause I am romantically attracted to women, so I 'pass' that test. I wouldn't gate-keep a bisexual in a straight relationship, so I wouldn't gate-keep an ace or aro person either.

Also, you don't have to have patience for it fortunately, you can just...get over it. Or not engage with people you don't believe exist, it just makes you look a bit silly though.

Ereshkigal

I'm a lttle sceptical too. But there is no doubt that these labels mean something to a lot of people. I want to find out more

loops

Does it have anything to do with autism? Your point about not being able to differentiate between friendship and dating, sounds like an inability to read social cues.

There have been asexual people around since forever. Probably a lot more than the current sex positive climate would have you believe. The whole 'lie back and think of England' cliche comes to mind.

Aromantic, also, sounds like something that many people would label themselves. Not everyone experiences a heady rush of emotion. Lots of peoples highly successful relationships have been based on shared interests and values.

What I find tricky is that you have a social circle which, coincidentally, includes so many people the same. And that it's funny? I'm not suggesting one can't take the piss out of others, I just don't understand the dynamic required for that over this particular issue? For instance , if I had no sexual feelings, I might find society's obsession over sex, a little distressing and difficult to understand. I'm not sure I'd think it was funny though. (I'm not criticising, because I have a rather inappropriate sense of humour myself, but I just can't see where the comedy lies).

Datun I mean, I've been assessed and don't have autism, and otherwise I'm quite good at social cues. It's more that were I to be in a 'relationship' it wouldn't look that different to some of my current friendships because there's no sex, and ideally never will be. For my aro friend there also wouldn't be any romantic feelings or actions, which further blurs the situation.

It's also...unintentional that we all are ace and all are friends, we didn't go looking for a group of people that all share a sexuality (and we're all slightly more or less ace than each other haha). It is nice to have that understanding, and nice that nobody had S.Os round having sex all the time.

I guess for us, if you didn't laugh you'd cry? Like, it is mega confusing and frustrating, so you take the piss out of it to feel less 'weird'. If I was more seriously dating (I want to but the difficulty of being ace and dating makes me anxious) I might be more upset by the whole thing.

For many asexual people (and aro people) they are pretty old when they figure out there's a name for how they feel, so they feel relief over finding a community, and realising they're not broken, so then it becomes less upsetting.

I don't know Datun. I'm still not convinced much more needs to be said beyond fancies men/fancies women/ fancies both. Everything else is just an aspect of individual personality. It all just sounds so terribly self- obsessed.

How exactly are demisexual people oppressed? 'I don't want to shag you unless I feel romantically attracted to you' is hardly a niche personality trait.

It's just a way for bored teenagers to play at being oppressed, and I feel a terrible mixture of embarrassment and pity when I hear anyone past the age of 16 referring to themselves as such.

sleigh I'm not demi, you'd have to ask someone who is how they experience oppression.

Saying that, being told your identity is invalid, that you are self-absorbed, or that someone is embarrassed for you...is pretty unpleasant. Also having people try to change your orientation, being raped to 'fix' you. These are all issues faced by a-spec people, which I think is pretty oppressive. Society telling you there's something wrong with you, that you need to be fixed, that you should have invasive testing to make sure you're not ill (because if you were healthy you'd want sex).

Sure, if I were to live in a country where gay people were murdered I might be ok (just on the ace part) but that doesn't mean there's no oppression in the UK. Gay people aren't routinely killed in the UK, that doesn't mean they don't face oppression...or if not 'oppression' then just a society not designed to accommodate them.

Also, like I said before, a-spec communities have existed much longer than tumblr, the only thing tumblr has done is expose teenagers to other options so they can ID earlier. It's not fixed though, if a teen wants to ID as asexual for a while, then change their mind, nobody is gonna care.

For many asexual people (and aro people) they are pretty old when they figure out there's a name for how they feel,

I don't understand that. There are many, many people who are asexual. It's nothing new. I don't understand how people can be unaware of it.

Same with aromantic.

I wonder if it's because sex as a part of society, is just beamed into peoples houses 24/7, due to social media, etc, leading everyone to believe that unless they're swinging off a chandelier in a thong and a rose between their teeth, they are horribly different.

Certainly, when I was growing up, lots of people were considered asexual. Spinsters and confirmed bachelors. (Although 'confirmed bachelor' became a euphemism for a closeted homosexual). Half my (large) extended family didn't date or marry. It was considered totally unremarkable.

Perhaps the 'labelling' is a backlash against our current, sexualised society. And might explain why older people think it's a bit daft. Because, to them, it's always been around, and never needed labelling.

If you were that sure in your own identity, someone telling you it was 'invalid' wouldn't bother you. the majority of the population are 'demisexual'