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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The UK is officially an intolerant hellhole for transwomen

362 replies

pisacake · 12/10/2017 09:31

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/12/british-transgender-woman-given-residency-in-safer-new-zealand

"The tribunal deemed it would be “unduly harsh” for the woman to be forced to return to the UK, where she suffered years of “persecution” due to her gender identity disorder. "

In pleading for the woman to be allowed to remain in New Zealand, her lawyer, Kar-yen Partington, presented 20 articles to the tribunal detailing transphobic hate crimes in the UK.

Recent data from the UK shows transphobic hate crimes against LGBTQ people have soared by nearly 80% in the last four years, with more than one in five LGBT people being the victim of a hate crime in last 12 months.

Just seriously curious if (actual) women have ever been granted asylum for being subject to harassment, which in some countries is very extreme. Or is this more trans privilege?

OP posts:
MillicentFawcett · 12/10/2017 16:46

There's that Philip/Pippa person who works in the City isn't there? Some days he's a woman, some days he's a man! Helpfully he wears different clothes and a wig so you can be sure not to misgender him accidentally. Let's hope he doesn't have any blind colleagues Hmm

ErrolTheDragon · 12/10/2017 18:19

Isn't cosgender someone who identifies as salad?

MillicentFawcett · 12/10/2017 18:30

Grin Errol

ALittleBitOfButter · 12/10/2017 18:38

Cosgenderfluid: "These are my salad days..."

newtlover · 12/10/2017 18:43

'the latin prefix non' Grin

IamalsoSpartacus · 12/10/2017 19:58

Yep. We're so full of hatred of transpeople that Laverne Cox has just been on C4 news commenting on Harvey Weinstein and sexual harrasment in the film industry.

LilyMcClellan · 13/10/2017 00:22

Oh, New Zealand, that progressive hub of tolerance, yeah, good luck with that.

Confused

I'm sorry, you may be mixing New Zealand up with Iran.

upperlimit · 13/10/2017 07:27

I haven't got it mixed up with anywhere thanks. From my experience, New Zealand is far more intolerant of those who challenge gender norms than here in the UK. Even a slight transgression, like being anything short of an alpha male or an appropriately feminine enough presenting female, is met with suspicion and bullying.

It is one of the reasons that New Zealand has the worst rates of bullying in school and ridiculously high rates of youth suicide.

So not Iran but, IMO, not a safe haven.

LilyMcClellan · 13/10/2017 08:41

Well that’s a massive generalization to make on a country based on one experience. I know a vast number of people who fall outside your “slight transgression” framework who have gotten through life quite well. As for the youth suicide, I don’t know what your qualification is, but I think you could attribute it just as much to cultural disenfranchisement, depression or poverty as to a failure to fit into particular gender norms.

Datun · 13/10/2017 09:34

A hellhole for transwomen?

Tell that to Phil/Pippa Bunce, Head of Global Markets Technology Core Engineering Integrations Components” at Credit Suisse. Who to goes to work in a dress as a woman some days, and goes to work in a suit and be a man on another.

www.out-standing.org/newsroom/credit-suisse-lead-the-way-on-workplace-gender-fluidity-awareness/

He has made it onto the FT and HERoes top 50 list of people who champion women in business.

The list is to:
"(Recognise) the top 50 senior female role models paving the way for gender diversity at all levels. Nominees will be successful, female executives based in the UK and Ireland, working up to three steps from the CEO."

He is leading the way to "workplace gender fluidity awareness"

As Miranda Yardley (a transwomen) points out "How does a man wearing hosiery, a dress, stripper wig and high heels ‘shine a light on the power and diversity of women in the workplace’?"

mirandayardley.com/en/cross-dressing-all-the-way-to-the-top-where-all-the-transvestites-have-gone/

This man, a married father, who likes to cross dress and has benefited from male privilege all his life, is now used an example of gender diversity.

Miranda nailed it when she asks where have all the transvestites gone? They are rebranded, remarketed, and relaunched as a brave, oppressed minority, representing women everywhere.

Not only is this an insult to women, it shows a quite breathtaking gullibility.

I honestly don't care if someone likes to cross dress. But for the love of God, dont take women for fools and think it, on any level, promotes diversity for women or represents them in any conceivable way.

Many transwomen may well come in for abuse and discrimination, which I condemn, out of hand. But part of the reason for that is the anger inspired by late transitioning men like Bunce, Jenner, Maloney who have spent a lifetime exploiting their privilege to become successful, and then further exploiting that very same privilege to force people to not only accommodate their cross dressing proclivities, but to actually view it as a progressive, beneficial tool for the promotion of women's rights.

The UK is officially an intolerant hellhole for transwomen
upperlimit · 13/10/2017 09:38

I'm not sure how to answer your points without derailing the thread further than I already have so. Suffice to say my opinion isn't formed from one experience and includes a number of tragedies.

It's impossible to talk about any country in any way without talking in broad strokes and something as insidious as the day to day way in which gender norms are policed is difficult to measure and compare to support a particular point of view, so I understand I am on shaky ground.

I was careful to say I believe it is one factor in the high teen suicide rates. Cultural disenfranchisement, depression or poverty are important factors but not specific to teenagers. I think their is a culture of bullying 'others' that is difficult to avoid in a school setting and it is willfully ignored.

I'm sure you disagree and that's fine. It's just my opinion. And one I didn't really contribute much to the thread with through my throwaway comment.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/10/2017 09:54

Well that’s a massive generalization to make on a country based on one experience

That seems to apply to the story behind the thread though.

pisacake · 13/10/2017 10:19

What a fucking ridiculous thing:

www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002

"Pips Bunce expressing as Pippa (left) and Philip (right) "

"I remember thinking very carefully about my first set of corporate outfits. I chose a lovely, chic yet professional dress and black high heels. "

He gets to be '#21 Female champion of women in business'

twitter.com/PippaBunce/status/913098958808993794

How is he championing women by taking their place on this list? How is he championing women by telling men that being a woman is putting in some fake tits and 45 minutes doing makeup in the morning?

"I picked "gender fluid" as my preferred identity term about four years ago. Some of the old fashioned horrible terms like transvestite have a lot of negative connotations. I knew I didn’t like those, it didn’t quite encapsulate how I felt. I am swishing around between my gender expression and thought that “gender fluid” is a really good representation. To me it’s synonymous to how a lady may choose to wear a dress, heels and makeup one day yet trousers, flats and no makeup another — these are just internal preferences of how we choose to express at any given time."

So if a 'lady' wears trousers she is no longer a lady?

What a wanker.

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MillicentFawcett · 13/10/2017 10:19

Absolutely Datun! I find it astounding that these men can just snatch awards away from women and feel not one iota of shame that they've just trampled over them in their need for validation. The narcissism - and the fact that it isn't recognised as such - makes me absolutely furious

pisacake · 13/10/2017 10:27

Male privilege is writing your corporate policy on how you must be referred to. outleadership.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Credit_Suisse_Transgender_Guide.pdf
Male privilege is being able to use all the toilets at work.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-38985820

I don't understand what this has to do with LGB. He says he is 'straight'. He has a wife and children. So he just likes dressing up as a woman.

What's his connection with the needs of gay men and women?

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ErrolTheDragon · 13/10/2017 11:14

To me it’s synonymous to how a lady may choose to wear a dress, heels and makeup one day yet trousers, flats and no makeup another — these are just internal preferences of how we choose to express at any given time."

Yes, quite right. Just that. Merely that, for which no actual woman got an award, ever.

Now, the fact that Phillip(a) is breaking the bounds of gender stereotypes is IMO good. However, as women have been doing this re 'presentation' for years, surely what he is is a male champion of non-gender conforming men in business.

Datun · 13/10/2017 11:15

What's his connection with the needs of gay men and women?

Zero. He's just another heterosexual man with a fetish. Jumping into a Trojan horse of mammoth proportions to the detriment of women everywhere. The power needed to do this is spectacular.

You have, on the one hand this huge powerful push to rebrand dodgy men as women but what I find almost suffocatingly frustrating is how many people are taken in by it.

Actually going out of your way to force people to treat you as female because your yearning over what female means shows a level of misogyny that's difficult to stomach.

It doesn't only leave women's oppression unacknowledged, it actually remarkets it as desirable.

Stephanie Davis Arai said something to me in Brighton which really struck a chord. When a boy decides he is a girl, and comes to school presenting as feminine, and is accepted and called brave, stunning, etc, girls look at this, and then look at themselves and are shattered by the fact that they, who are female, are neither 'stunning nor brave' because they don't conform to the same stereotype.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/10/2017 11:18

Compare and contrast Grayson Perry cheerfully rocking up to get his award from the palace in a lovely mother-of-the-bride outfit.

MillicentFawcett · 13/10/2017 13:55

Yes Datun! re being brave and stunning.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 13/10/2017 13:59

Despite her precautions and isolated existence, the woman experienced frequent verbal and physical assaults from strangers, including being stalked, pushed off pavements and screamed at. She also had people grab her breasts to see if they were real, and ask “what are you?”

Because none of this happens to real women on a daily fucking basis! Angry

OlennasWimple · 13/10/2017 14:00

Re stunning and brave. You're so right. Fuck. The fuckers have found another way to shove us down the ladder, haven't they? Sad

Datun · 13/10/2017 14:24

It's a really horrible dichotomy. Because I'm sure young people questioning their gender identity and presenting as the opposite sex, do indeed encounter negative reactions.

But the support should not be under a framework of beauty and bravery.

Acceptance and acknowledgement. Yes. But not lauded and feted. Not told that by presenting as female, they are being female. And in a so much better and in more desirable way than actual females. There is no goal to how good a female one is. It just is.

Children should be taught to accept people who present differently, whilst at the same time being under no possible illusion that the person has changed their biological sex. That should be emphasised.

loopsdefruit · 13/10/2017 16:43

I do disagree with a lot of posters here RE: Trans arguments, which is fine, live and let live lol but I do get super confused when people don't understand why the T is in LGBT. Like, stonewall riots were started by trans women, and trans people have always played a huge part in campaigning for and getting rights for the Queer community. That's why the T is there, and why it should remain there.

Datun · 13/10/2017 16:59

loopsdefruit

Lots of people supported LGB rights and fought alongside them, without being LGB themselves. Not just trans.

The difference is transgenderism is an identity, not a sexual orientation.

And whilst they have common goals of being accepted for who they are, homosexual rights did not remove the rights of anyone else.

Lots of people are a minority, and want to be accepted. It doesn't make them a member of the LGB community.

I think it's damaging to conflate the two. There is no reason to not support sexual orientation. There is every reason to disagree with the trans-ideology.

Datun · 13/10/2017 17:00

I might add that the trans-ideology is in direct opposition to LGB rights. It erases homosexuality as an orientation.

Lesbians particularly, (always the bottom of the pile) are relentlessly persecuted as a direct result of the trans-ideology.