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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The UK is officially an intolerant hellhole for transwomen

362 replies

pisacake · 12/10/2017 09:31

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/12/british-transgender-woman-given-residency-in-safer-new-zealand

"The tribunal deemed it would be “unduly harsh” for the woman to be forced to return to the UK, where she suffered years of “persecution” due to her gender identity disorder. "

In pleading for the woman to be allowed to remain in New Zealand, her lawyer, Kar-yen Partington, presented 20 articles to the tribunal detailing transphobic hate crimes in the UK.

Recent data from the UK shows transphobic hate crimes against LGBTQ people have soared by nearly 80% in the last four years, with more than one in five LGBT people being the victim of a hate crime in last 12 months.

Just seriously curious if (actual) women have ever been granted asylum for being subject to harassment, which in some countries is very extreme. Or is this more trans privilege?

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 14/10/2017 21:11

I mean I doubt the number of people passed over for jobs for any of these reasons is anything more than vanishingly small to non- existent.

IrritatedUser1960 · 14/10/2017 21:13

Ridiculous article, it makes us sound like ISIS.

loopsdefruit · 14/10/2017 21:17

pisa So? People post stuff here ALL the time from dodgy sources, doesn't mean their work isn't useful or that it isn't widely accepted as an explanation of something. You don't have to love Kinsey as a person, but his work is widely accepted as a good explanation of sexual attraction. There's also the purple-red scale, but you probably wouldn't like that either as it was created by an asexual person.

Flora If someone wanted to ID as an asexual homosexual, then I'd accept that, it's a useful way to get other people to understand what you mean. But by definition you can't be both, but you can ID however you feel comfortable.

Lass What level of evidence would you need? Like, there's books, studies, personal experiences, she was a researcher into discrimination, not sure what level of academic you'd find acceptable, it's not like she's a random person on tumblr.

Olennas 1) I'm not saying it's not illegal, just that it is discrimination. 2) I think that's part of it, but also the fact that asexuality isn't often discussed or understood leads to people feeling that there's something wrong with them or that they are weird/alone. Obviously not like that's the intention of society, but it's also not being addressed on any meaningful level. 3) Yeh, I think it's 'if the people know' it's more likely, same with being gay. 4) Yeh, this is important I think, cause abstinence is not the same at all (it's a choice) and young people who just don't experience sexual attraction are at more risk from peer pressure or isolation/feeling 'strange'. 5) Like, viewed as not fully human (sex is seen as a key part of being human) or as immature/permanent children, less able to understand complex relationship dynamics, or as 'tease's.

SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 14/10/2017 21:19

* You are just being offensive now. I was BORN with hairy legs. They're part of my IDENTITY. Are you saying i should conceal that integral part of me to make more people sexually attracted to me?*

Exactly - some people are hairy, some people aren’t -deal with it. Why should I have to pretend to be hairless by shaving my legs when I’m not? Why should I be discriminated against for jobs where I would be required to where a skirt, have pressure from men I’m seeing, from family members to conform to the ‘normal’ level of hairiness for a woman? When it comes to it, the expense and societal pressure to shave legs is much more acceptable to those around me than the pressure to have a sexual relationship!

FloraFox · 14/10/2017 21:20

this could equally apply to someone in an asexual relationship with someone of the same sex

The axis of discrimination here is perceived homosexuality. Your asexuality is not relevant, unless homosexual sex is illegal in the place of concern (although I highly doubt that in places where homosexuality is still illegal there are asexuals, aromantics or demisexuals going around claiming to be queer).

ALittleBitOfButter · 14/10/2017 21:20

they are often viewed differently to sexual people (negatively) by both straight and gay people
I reckon it's not true, or not in a pejotative sense. In what scenario anyway? In a meatmarket night club? Yes. At work? Nope. As a distant relative? Nope. (Wouldn't want to get it on with them anyway).

Presumably asexual people give off "not interested in flirting" vibes, so how could a 'sexual' person discern if the asexual person is not into THEM personally, or people in general?

Sexual people often consider fat people and people with big noses or slopey shoulders or whatever as sexually uninteresting. Are they discriminating against these categories in the same way? Asexual people have taken themselves off the table but the fat and ugly haven't. So who is really discriminated against here?

loopsdefruit · 14/10/2017 21:21

Butter Haha ok, you can be queer cause of your hairy legs if that's how you feel the most comfortable identifying, doesn't bother me lol I'd support your campaign to make leg hair a protected characteristic

OlennasWimple · 14/10/2017 21:26

The more I think about it, the more I suspect that any discrimination against asexual people is actually more likely to be homophobia, as people who say "I'm not really into dating" are often presumed to be gay but not fully at ease with their homosexuality

hingedspeculum · 14/10/2017 21:26

Loops, the purple-red scale was first proposed on reddit. This isn't a credible source to derive an understanding of sex and sexuality. What credentials does the person have other than identifying as asexual themselves and being able to rig up a table in photoshop?

You said earlier than people get their research from tumblr - you've provided a blog post and a reddit table.

ALittleBitOfButter · 14/10/2017 21:27

Asexual people don't want sex. Fine, don't have it. Sex is hard to get anyway.
I wonder how many socially inept and spectrummy young women identify as asexual nowadays because they don't understand flirting or find it weird/contrived (as I did)?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 14/10/2017 21:27

Lass What level of evidence would you need? Like, there's books, studies, personal experiences, she was a researcher into discrimination, not sure what level of academic you'd find acceptable, it's not like she's a random person on tumblr

It wasn't much better than that.

Presumably asexual people give off "not interested in flirting" vibes, so how could a 'sexual' person discern if the asexual person is not into THEM personally, or people in general?

I did that. Unless it was one of pretty men I was interested in my "not interested in flirting" vibe was glacial and pretty all encompassing. I discriminated against the fat and ugly.

loopsdefruit · 14/10/2017 21:32

Butter Like, they are viewed as broken, mentally or physically ill, immature, creepy, aliens, not fully human. I think asexuality was included in the DSM within hyposexual desire disorder before it was specified that some people being considered for HSDD may be asexual.

Datun · 14/10/2017 21:33

Sex is hard to get anyway.

Funny enough, I tend to agree with that. Although with a caveat.

Sex is not hard to come by. But frequently, sex with someone you really want to have sex with, is.

Not for everyone, obviously. So what would my identity be?

Only want to have sex with certain types of people. The definition of which is too complicated to explain to myself, let alone anyone else?

loops?

ALittleBitOfButter · 14/10/2017 21:35

Butter Haha ok, you can be queer cause of your hairy legs if that's how you feel the most comfortable identifying, doesn't bother me lol I'd support your campaign to make leg hair a protected characteristic

It's a pity though that you see hairy legs as similar to adornments and mutilations like piercings and tattoos, and by extension make-up, which you allude to earlier as something you're interested in. Womanhood is not a costume though. I see hair on our bodies as something that is natural not a contrived part of a "gender identity".

loopsdefruit · 14/10/2017 21:40

hinged a blog post with references to journals and books? I didn't 'use' the purple/red scale, I used the kinsey scale (and find it useful for describing my own experiences) I just said that the purple-red scale exists, I didn't know it began on reddit just that it went round online news sites.

butter ah yes, the "they just can't get sex so they say they're asexual" argument. Again, being asexual is not about how much or little sex you choose to have.

Olennas I mean, from the POV of the person doing the discrimination maybe, but for the person experiencing it who doesn't view themselves as homosexual, they are being discriminated against based on their sexual orientation. Also, asexual people do face discrimination from both gay communities and straight ones :/

QuentinSummers · 14/10/2017 21:44

Also, asexual people do face discrimination from both gay communities and straight ones :/
What discrimination do they face?
I really don't think you understand what discrimination actually is. It isn't being teased, misunderstood or even socially isolated (although those things are unpleasant).
It's having fewer life opportunities because of a particular characteristic. I just don't believe that whether or not someone's having sex has a bearing on their life opportunities.

ALittleBitOfButter · 14/10/2017 21:44

Butter Like, they are viewed as broken, mentally or physically ill, immature, creepy, aliens, not fully human.
Viewed as that by who though? Their boss? Don't believe it - not relevant. Their GP? Hardly. Would the GP be saying, "we need to sort out some sex for you!" Their friends? No, they're not your friends. Their enemies? Why would they know this unless they hit on you and you rejected them? Surely you would have said "no I'm not interested in you" rather than "actually I'm asexual".

So who?

FloraFox · 14/10/2017 21:47

lol I'd support your campaign to make leg hair a protected characteristic

Really? I think this demonstrates how shallow your position is. Does this mean that loads of people out demonstrating for this, that or the other Tumblr characteristic could just as easily be demonstrating about leg hair? Actually, I think you're on to something there, it is as trivial as that for many of them.

ALittleBitOfButter · 14/10/2017 21:48

butter ah yes, the "they just can't get sex so they say they're asexual" argument. Again, being asexual is not about how much or little sex you choose to have.

I'm genuinely mystified. Where did I say that?

Also, are you claiming asexual people do choose to have sex? Surely they are coerced then?

loopsdefruit · 14/10/2017 21:50

Datun well that depends, are the people you want to have sex with men, women, or both? That's sexuality, then within that there are preferences (I like girls with dark hair, doesn't mean my orientation has to do with that, or that I will definitely end up with a girl with dark hair, or that I like all girls with dark hair and no blondes).

Butter leg hair is totally natural, and IMO it shouldn't make a difference if someone shaves or not when it comes to being employed, and people shouldn't be judged for their personal decisions. But there are social norms, and people who don't meet them are judged and do face issues from people who care about those things. That's why I likened them to tattoos, because people face judgement for their choices if those choices are outside social norms. I don't always shave, and when I do it's to be comfortable not because I feel like I have to (not now anyway, it was a bit different when I was at school), same with makeup, I wear it for me not to fulfil some idea of womanhood.

QuentinSummers · 14/10/2017 21:52

I like girls with dark hair, doesn't mean my orientation has to do with that
How do you like girls with dark hair if you don't feel sexual attraction?
Confused

ALittleBitOfButter · 14/10/2017 21:54

Flora typical Tumblrites would never advocate for leg hair because it's an icky woman's biology thing (objectified as bad by the patriarchy but they don't acknowledge that).
Identity is determined by things/problems solved by late capitalism, like coloured hair dye, make up, jewellery, shaving implements. Anyone who criticises them is called a white feminist who is ignoring their privilege.

It's all so Hunger Games. The dun coloured people are staring through the gates with fascinated horror.

loopsdefruit · 14/10/2017 22:00

Quentin Ok, fine, they don't experience discrimination, they just experience constant judgement and prejudice because they don't conform to norms in either straight or LGB communities.

Butter When I came out to my friends and family (the non-ace friends) I got asked if I had "seen a doctor because that's not normal", laughed at, asked if that meant I was like a plant, asked 'but don't you want children', told that it didn't exist, and asked if I had seen a counsellor. That is not an uncommon experience. Additionally, when asked, other orientations do not view asexuality favourably, for similar reasons.

"I wonder how many socially inept and spectrummy young women identify as asexual nowadays because they don't understand flirting or find it weird/contrived (as I did)?" I'll admit I probably got unnecessarily cross about this comment and twisted it, sorry about that, it was just frustrating that you made it seem that asexual people are just saying that because they're inept and 'on the spectrum'. If there are ace people on the spectrum, it doesn't invalidate their sexuality, and would you say that if they were gay?

"Also, are you claiming asexual people do choose to have sex? Surely they are coerced then?" While some asexual people experience sexual violence (of which coercion is a form) some asexual people do choose to have sex. Asexuality is not 'not having sex' it is not experiencing sexual attraction, asexual people can have libido and this can be low or high just like anyone else. You can want sex, without being sexually attracted to someone (or so I've heard lol I'm a don't-want-sex ace)

loopsdefruit · 14/10/2017 22:00

quentin romantically

ALittleBitOfButter · 14/10/2017 22:02

So what you're saying is you don't have a choice about your asexuality (which in my opinion doesn't demonstrably lead to discrimination and abuse, even when disclosed)
BUT I have a choice about having hairy legs (which demonstrably make me discriminated against and abused, if shown).

It all sounds a lot like "women should identify out of their oppression and the patriarchy problem's solved!" Ta da!

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