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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman attacked by transactivists at speakers corner - part deux

895 replies

BeyondNoone · 18/09/2017 00:16

Here's the link to thread one
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3033126-London-meeting-to-discuss-Gender-Identity-attacked-by-transactivists

I'm just going to sleep, if someone else can add the news links for me please? Thanks :)

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Rumandraisin1 · 19/09/2017 08:54

The difference between this and Islamic terrorism is that the Muslim organisations in the UK condemn violence and there is a lot of focus on hate preachers who radicalise those who commit the violence.

Transactivist violence is openly supported by many trans organisations and media, in some cases is actively planned and incited by them and certainly there is no attempt to tackle the poisonous misogyny and extremism within their ranks.

This doesn't mean all trans people support this (many just want a quiet life) and certainly a lot of LGB people oppose this but you can't express any dissent within these orgs without getting abused and/or expelled so many just walk away from what was once the LGBT community.

Sadly these extremist organisations are considered the mainstream, receive funding and are being listened to by government.

FactsAreNotMean · 19/09/2017 09:06

The extremists are definitely setting the agenda. It's worrying. And although I'm straight the way lgb has been taken over worries and concerns me as it's just not right.

There's this refusal to allow anyone to have a safe space without including trans people which is very narcissistic IMO. Lesbians who are not attracted to TW should be able to meet and discuss their issues without being forced to be inclusive.

Ditto women. If I want to set up a group to discuss women's experiences of sexism in the workplace, for example, I should be able to but you can guarantee that group would be overrun by tw.

BeyondNoone · 19/09/2017 09:11

Just seen on Reddit, yet another lesbian banned from an LGBT group for stating she will not have sex with men Angry

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BeyondNoone · 19/09/2017 09:18

Article in Morning Star today
www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-eb98-Misogynist-violence-at-Speakers-Corner#.WcDSpNHTWhA
(Very good one)

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FactsAreNotMean · 19/09/2017 09:30

That goes my head in beyondnoone. Apart from anything else it's sexual orientation not gender orientation. Actually physical attraction is a biological reaction, you don't choose who you are attracted to. And whether it's what people want to hear or not in the majority of cases then people can identify, at least at a subconscious level, if someone is male or female. But nobody should have to agree to have sex with any group of people or individual, full stop.

Datun · 19/09/2017 09:42

'Peak trans' is a profoundly illustrative expression.

The way this issue has been analysed does not indicate, in any way, that women tar all trans people with the same brush.

Transmen for instance. Discussion around women who transition focuses on the reasons, which usually involve past sexual trauma. That is, without doubt, a feminist issue.

The reason for the word peak is because it's a journey. From passionately, but blindly wishing to be inclusive, to the understanding that it enforces gender roles and is therefore regressive, not progressive, the puzzlement over the lack of logic, and the niggling feeling that it is underpinned by threat.

There is a dawning realisation that it is indeed a misogynistic ideology and that addressing the issues of men with gender dysphoria is but a dot in the distance.

The understandable reluctance to do a u-turn generally involves more research, at which point the inherent violence and irrationality becomes too difficult to swallow and all ones doubts come to the fore.

It's a very strange experience for people. I have read many accounts of women who were previous allies who peaked over personal threats. How it must feel to look back down the hill, knowing that you were ignoring all the red flags used by abusers everywhere until they were openly and confidently waved right in your face!

I had a long conversation with someone over the question of toilets, which I could easily articulate. And I couldn't understand the reluctance to appreciate what I was saying. Until they said, well look women get raped anyway. What difference does it make?

I went from wanting to understand, to understanding only too bloody well, in a second. Women are completely expendable.

I'm not an idiot. I still have exactly the same concerns and worries over men, women and children with gender dysphoria.

It's just a shame that transactivists actively don't.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 19/09/2017 09:47

Amnesty have apparently denied that the person tweeting that material about violence is on their staff...

Datun · 19/09/2017 09:47

FactsAreNotMean

The question of who you can sleep with is incredibly manipulative. They cannot outright say a lesbian has to sleep with somebody with a penis. But they do, constantly, say you cannot discount someone from your dating pool because they're trans.

It's a horribly manipulative, subtle difference. The fact that all transwomen are men is the crux. You can't say it.

You can only say, that despite the fact that they're women, I don't do penis. Not I don't do men.

Although, this is also now shifting. Having established that the penis is a female organ, discounting a penis, despite it being attached to a woman, is also now challenged.

HemlockIsSpartacus · 19/09/2017 09:48

Datun Exactly. I remember being here, on FWR, and arguing passionately against TERFs and in favour of those poor transwomen. I was every bit the good little lib fem.

But then, bit by bit, all the little things I'd previously managed to excuse or ignore started to add up and become harder to dismiss.

My first peak trans was when I first saw the argument that lesbians were bigots for not wanting sex with pre-op transwomen. That blew my mind, that there were apparently liberal and progressive types arguing in favour of correcting lesbians sexual preferences, and treating them as deviants.

Datun · 19/09/2017 09:51

BeyondNoone

That Reddit thread is heartbreakin and infuriating in turn.

Datun · 19/09/2017 09:59

HemlockIsSpartacus

It's a truly horrible experience.

Never has the term gaslighting been more appropriate.

I'm sorry you went through it, but relieved, nonetheless.

Being legally unable to define the word woman is crushingly, critically serious.

SentimentalLentil · 19/09/2017 09:59

Are there groups only for trans that don't let women in?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 19/09/2017 10:01

Are there groups only for trans that don't let women in

Ah, but transwomen are women! :)

Unless you are referring to groups for transmen ... :)

PandoNoPants · 19/09/2017 10:03

I'm new to this debate and I'm horrified about what happened in London last week. For a long time, I've wanted to discuss things but have no one to discuss with! I go from worrying that I'm being transphobic to feeling that I'm silly for thinking that.

I actually picked up on recent events because it was trending on Mumsnet over the weekend. I've been reading through the thread on Chat and here, trying to get up to speed.

I'm a heavy Twitter user and I spent time over the weekend looking up this "terf" term.. Again, horrified. Mostly violent tweets encouraging others to hurt/punch. When did everything get so violent?!! Why are we not allowed to debate anything anymore? The stock response seems to be to shut it down.

I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I've never actively read the Feminism chat here. Blush I'm not sure why. If it hadn't been in chat, I'd never have found this. I'm glad I did though.

I'm going to read through again later as im sure I saw a template letter to send to local mp's? I'm definitely interested in doing that.

I also posted the incredibly well written Times article on social media. As expected, no one commented except for a friend who is now trans. They didn't even read the article and pretty much went nuclear. When they calmed down, I asked them to read it and we had a calm debate. Again, knee-jerk reaction was aggression sadly. I also notice this more with my left/liberal friends. I'm not even sure where I stand politically anymore because I'm not on board with any violence and that seems to alienate me!

I hope you don't mind me joining this thread.

SentimentalLentil · 19/09/2017 10:07

Yes that my point.

Do trans women have groups especially for trans women that don't let non trans women in (im trying to avoid saying cis) because this seems totally backwards to me. If they can see the need for an exclusively trans woman group why can't they see a need for a non trans woman group.

maxthemartian · 19/09/2017 10:08

I actually peak-transed due to the Jenner thing. I didn't understand how a very wealthy, right-wing white man could be implicated in causing a fatal car accident and it be almost universally ignored as everyone celebrated them suddenly "being a woman" and it being this huge global story.
At around the same time, I read a thread on MN and saw people objecting to the term cis and saying that transwoman were not women, I was initially a bit shocked but I read on and the penny dropped and I realised that I'd applied bugger-all critical thinking to the issue until that point.

FactsAreNotMean · 19/09/2017 10:09

Welcome to the thread pandonopants.

Anyone noticing a real recurring theme in what new joiners to these threads are saying- that's no criticism btw, more an observation that we've had quite a few women who are saying similar things, that they've been increasingly uneasy but scared to say so. I suspect this feeling is probably far more widespread and mainstream than we realise and we need to get these people talking. At the moment the TRA think the numbers are with them. I don't think that's true

YetAnotherSpartacus · 19/09/2017 10:10

Pando - welcome! Keep reading and posting. Bring your friends :). It is fantastic to see so many 'peaking'.

Datun · 19/09/2017 10:13

PandoNoPants

I hope you don't mind me joining this thread.

I, for one, would send a bunch of flowers to everyone who is coming to this and seeing it for what it is.

For anyone else wondering about the feminist boards, I have certainly not been a feminist all my life, far from it. But all the dots, throughout my life, got connected in a huge rush when I started to investigate what feminism meant.

And although there are a lot of acronyms, and assumed knowledge (because feminism has been going on since forever, obviously), to get your head around, once you see it, you can't unsee it.

YesVeryGoodVeryStrong · 19/09/2017 10:14

It's the threats of violence but then with a smiley face which I find quite chilling. Like it's a perfectly rational, sane thing to do.

Yes the toilets was another thing that annoyed me about the recent Guilty Feminist episode on this. They all said oh I don't care who's in the cubicle next to me. Then a minute later they said I suppose now if you saw a man go into the women's toilet you would think it weird/strange/feel something bad might happen and you could go and tell a member of staff and they would investigate whereas if it was all gender neutral there would be nothing you could do. But then they didn't say, ok actually maybe I do mind then! They just started talking about women gossiping in the toilets Hmm

SentimentalLentil · 19/09/2017 10:16

I've just asked my mother who runs a trans women's group Hmm whether non trans women are allowed in (except her of course, queen handmaiden) and she said 'no of course not they have different experiences' and I said 'so they are different' and she said 'oh sentimental I wish you'd drop it you're really getting on my nerves'.

I don't know why I'm surprised to be honest, she's been throwing me under the bus for men my whole life.

Datun · 19/09/2017 10:16

SentimentalLentil

Don't think there are many, because it doesn't serve the validation issue. Although, the cotton ceiling 'workshop' was just for transwomen.

I can't imagine many women wanting to go to it, to be honest.

I've only seen one comment online where transwomen were infuriated that women wanted entry to their trans-only meeting. But all the comments underneath were what meeting, I've never seen such a meeting? Etc.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 19/09/2017 10:20

she's been throwing me under the bus for men my whole life

Not surprising. So many lesbians I know do this. They know where the power is like any other woman.

FactsAreNotMean · 19/09/2017 10:22

Your mum sounds hard work SentimentalLentil. I have one of those too so you have my sympathies.

That's the thing isn't it datun. Women wouldn't want to go to a meeting to discuss tw experiences because we know we haven't had those experiences and so we have nothing to contribute. Start a discussion group about experiences of female puberty, or misogynistic prejudice in the workplace, or for female sexual abuse survivors and you'd be inundated with TW.