Woman attacked by transactivists at speakers corner - part deux

[BeyondNoone]

Here's the link to thread one
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3033126-London-meeting-to-discuss-Gender-Identity-attacked-by-transactivists

I'm just going to sleep, if someone else can add the news links for me please? Thanks :)

There's more to being biologically female than just not having a penis, otherwise every man who had lost his penis in an accident would become female.

It's no surprise that someone who has had there penis removed would feel male, because they are biologically male with all the hormones that go with it.

The fact that we even have to get into these 'down the rabbit hole' discussions infuriates me.

Then next time a woman is raped, because of her biology, and the way women are treated, perhaps the jury will say why the fuck didn't she just identify as a man? Job done.

Or perhaps I can identify as a man and have lengthy and constant unprotected sex? With a man who identifies as a woman? Let him take the risk.

The word woman means something.

And it's not a feeling in a man's head.

Datun It's entirely your point. First of all, no one can explain it. The people who feel it, or the most erudite person in the world, using their imagination. No one, not one person has ever been able to articulate it.

I'll have to disagree that it is. My point is that you are asserting things about a whole group, and its core concept, based on assumptions. And taking things that might be applicable to specific individuals and extrapolating them to the whole group. Tarring the whole concept with it.

Your response is to cite an individual who described her feeling of being a woman in gender stereotypical terms. Then extrapolate from this.

Nowhere have I suggested that there are not trans people who have concluded that they are men/women due to an affinity with stereotypes. Maybe that specific individual who describred is one of them?

You also mention that no-one can describe the content of the feeling/sense of being a man/woman (as if that is an easy thing to do with any feeling). Then assume that this means that any such sense or feeling is based on gender stereotypes.

Your assumptions and extrapolations leading you to the assertion that transgenderism, at its very core, is regressive and enforces gender roles.

Then next time a woman is raped, because of her biology, and the way women are treated, perhaps the jury will say why the fuck didn't she just identify as a man? Job done.

What difference would that make? A rapist isn't necessarily going to care about someone's gender, religion, sexuality or anything else other than physical parts.

This is kind of an odd stick to beat the notions of gender or religion or sexuality etc with?

'Well I get paid less to do the same job, I am sorting out a cake for someone in the office because they are leaving, I am off to buy some birthday cards for my partners niece, no one thinks I'm funny anymore and I have to apologise more in emails'

Brilliant!

What difference would that make? A rapist isn't necessarily going to care about someone's gender, religion, sexuality or anything else other than physical parts

Exactly. That's why being a woman is not about your gender identity or sexuality or anything else but the biological fact that you are female, that's why a transwoman can't actually be a woman.

JAPAB, with respect, you are doing exactly what you project onto Datun. You are extrapolating an idea of what Transpeople "are" based upon you experience, rather than understanding the situation based upon your experience plus that of others and then also the evidence. You have dismissed the latter two.

Again, this wouldn't be an issue if we weren't talking about the chemical castration of pre teenage children, in order that they fit in with gender stereotypes.

Feminists on this board have been arguing at length for the Trans issue not to be understood as a homogeneous thing. We recognise the differences between a 45 year old crossdressing man, who dresses with a sexual motivation, and the 12 year old child who doesn't fit in with the heteronormative gender stereotype, and believes they need a sex change.

People on this board have been fighting for the law to recognise this difference.

JAPAB

"Because it says if you want those gender roles you must be that sex.

You can't be a man who likes floral material, crying at films and cuddles kittens. That must make you a woman.

You can't be a woman who is competitive, ambitious, opinionated and a leader. That must make you a man."

^^ current guidelines for schools, (thanks Mermaids!) are along these lines. That's what we are fighting against.

I can't believe we are having the mad scientist body swapping analogies discussion again.

Someone taking a sentient adult who has grown up with one body and swapping it for another would cause distress. No need to change sex to do so. Swap me for a 6ft leggy supermodel and I'd still be distressed!

That's not the same as stating you feel like the opposite sex when objectively that's not possible because woman is not a feeling. It's not a feeling inside a woman's head, so how can it be a feeling inside a man's?

I don't feel like a woman. I don't even know what that means.

Yes, there are men who think they are female. I find it fascinating that society is encouraging this delusion.

Everyone knows that they are not female and hence not women.

There is a poster here with long term form for derailing and dominating a thread for their own reasons as seems to be happening here. May be better not to engage. These threads are so important for posters still blind to what is happening, several have confided that they have found it useful. It's the circular and frustrated arguments that have been had many times that put off lurkers and anyone but the very committed continuing to read.

JAPAB always does this, guys.

cheesetoast, Not sure what assertions I am making about all trans people.

Again, this wouldn't be an issue if we weren't talking about the chemical castration of pre teenage children, in order that they fit in with gender stereotypes.

There are different strands going on. This one started because of the assertion that trangenderism enforces gender roles, as in intrinsically. Of course some specific trans people do.

Thought so Zolah/misshaversham.

Story on the news this morning about the extremely high rates of depression in young people.

Now the "die terf scum" has spilled over into RL violence can't something be done about all of that vitriol on social media.

I thought there were laws about using social media to incite violence? Shouldn't the police be doing something?

Are there any gender critical legal types about?

This is a thread about violence against a woman. Please stop engaging with the serial derailer who wants to make it all about him and his ponderous analogies.

But trans DOES Intrinsically reinforce gender roles, the only time it doesn't is if someone has body dysmorphia (in opposed to gender dysmorphia) and those cases must be very rare.
I'm not saying every single trans person is trying to reinforce stereotypes, in fact I'm sure most of them are not, BUT that doesn't stop the fact that in order for trans to exist then gender (and it's stereotypes) must exist as a real thing.
I doubt it's conscious but how can you 'feel like a woman' without relying on these gender stereotypes.

And yes 'cis' people reinforce them too, but that's not what we're talking about. We'll fight against it there too.

Quite, JAPAB has been hanging around on FWR since forever being a deliberate contrarian, mansplainer and derailer. His relatively new-found interest in trans is just the latest stick he's found to poke us with.

Being a woman is not a feeling in a man's head.

Mistakenly thinking you have such a feeling is not an excuse for hitting women.

What I don't understand is why if there is a mismatch between body and brain we accept treatment is to change the body, not the brain.

Gender as a social contract is not an 'idea' it's the very definition of the word. In the dictionary the definition is

'.
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
'

Whereas sex is

'Either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.'

Again I'll shout it loud and say it proud , ill sky write it in the sky and interpret it through the medium of dance. We don't care what you want to present as, we have no issues with people wearing what they want or calling themselves what they want, but the fact is no matter how much surgery you have you will never change sex and saying you can is deluded.
Gender bend all you like, in fact we encourage it but it doesn't ACTUALLY make you a woman.

I thought as much pricklyball but didn't want to be rude. Female socialization much?

This us interesting (pdf link)
Says the idea of the "gender binary" is very strong in transsexual people and contributes to some continuing to feel dysphoric after surgery
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=apt.rcpsych.org/content/18/1/17.full-text.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjDtLT9mLPWAhUlKMAKHV8UAeoQFgiTATAQ&usg=AFQjCNFPxnZV9EAfoMIRq2rkep2DO897OQ" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=apt.rcpsych.org/content/18/1/17.full-text.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjDtLT9mLPWAhUlKMAKHV8UAeoQFgiTATAQ&usg=AFQjCNFPxnZV9EAfoMIRq2rkep2DO897OQ

Yes JAPAB always does this. I agree that it is best not to engage. Lets not have this discussion stolen like so many others.

I think it's obvious that everyone, even (maybe especially) the most vocal and aggressive trans activists, knows that trans women are male (and that trans men are female). That's why they argue so vociferously that they are - if you knew that you were X, you wouldn't be so bothered if other people thought you were Y. But they know it's all just a collective delusion that people only play along with to be polite/for headpats/because they don't want to be punched in the face.

There is no one reason why people transition. Science does not have an answer.

There might well be a scientific reason behind it. No one doubts that. Like anorexia. And other disassociative conditions that rely on the denial of reality.

And gender dysphoria is a real and crippling condition.

It's not a deliberate attempt to enforce gender stereotypes for the sake of it. To piss off women.

But that is the effect.

Every single narrative about children who are trans, talks about gender stereotypes. Every single detransitioned story explains how gender stereotypes are at the heart of it. A rejection of toxic masculinity, or expected femininity.

Masculinity and femininity by their nature are stereotypes. You don't get transwomen say the reason I transitioned to be a woman is because I wanted to reject all my feelings of femininity.

If it's not about reinforcing gender stereotypes, I'd like to know how it doesn't.