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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What causes women to become trans activists?

244 replies

TheChampagneGalop · 14/09/2017 18:24

I mean the type of activists that appeared to disrupt the recent meeting about gender in London.

From what I've read about this incident in Speaker's corner there were more women than men protesting and harassing women trying to go to that meeting.
I watched the video and the male violence was of course disturbing and alarming (and criminal!), but the mindless mantra chants from the women about terfs also disturbed me.

OP posts:
jellyfrizz · 19/09/2017 14:07

Do the majority of this demographic expect to identify as a woman whilst insisting on maintaining a male physical presentation and basically taking the piss?

No, I think there are a lot of genuine people who either have sex or gender dysphoria and are genuinely unhappy in their body and/or the role their biological sex is supposed to play in society. There are a lot of unhappy, confused people out there who need support.

But there are also the piss takers and attention seekers and people who just don't see the harm in taking away the protections for women.

SentimentalLentil · 19/09/2017 14:13

And the thing is we are not even allowed to ASK these questions without being branded transphobic. Just asking what the implications are for women is seen as hate speech now.

Datun · 19/09/2017 14:26

Crazyweimlady

You're not the only one who is experiencing a disconnect here. Many people know perfectly harmless transwomen who just want to get on with it. As you say, just to try and experience life through their version of femininity.

Indeed, transwomen have been doing this for decades, and no one turned a hair.

But what's happened now is some sort of a perfect storm that has been created by bringing in different strands. The first one is what we used to call cross dressing fetishists. They are now considered trans (which they resolutely were not before). They are a massive cohort and have hijacked transgenderism in order to implement their fetish.

They are also the ones responsible for saying transwomen are biologically women.

Genuine transsexuals, like the one you know of, and people like Miranda Yardley, in no way assert that they are actually women. That the penis is a female organ- a lady stick, a girl dick and that homosexual orientation doesn't exist. That people are attracted to other people's gender, not their sex.

(Which means me, a straight woman, would be perfectly happy to have sex with a woman who identified as a man, but has a vagina. Patently nonsense.)

The second strand of people to enter this foray are violent, misogynistic men. Since you need do nothing to be considered trans, they can just spout their hatred of women with impunity, covered by that label, whilst doing nothing to deserve it. Just straightforward normal abusers.

So you've got men with a fetish and violent men hijacking the issues of a microscopically small number of people who have gender dysphoria, for their own ends.

I wonder how many other factions are waiting quietly until this goes through Parliament. Convicted rapists? Paedophiles?

The upcoming debate in parliament about whether to allow self identification seems to have pushed this all forward. Culturally, it's pretty much accepted that if you say you're trans, you are. Because it's also discriminantort to ask for proof, i.e. the certificate.

How many people are on here saying there are trans-children at their children's school. Legally, they cannot be trans. You have to live 'as the opposite sex' for two years and get a gender reassignment certificate (for which surgery is not necessary). You can't do that until you're 18. But it's already happening, everywhere.

Before the bill has even been discussed.

SentimentalLentil · 19/09/2017 14:27

I think the toilets thing is a bit of a red herring. Trans people have been using whichever toilet for years without people noticing and there was absolutely no way or inclination to police it. I don't think many people would try and force one of the 'genuine' trans women who just want a quiet life to have to piss in the men's toilets.

The issue comes with self identification and the fact that with it literally anyone can go into women's toilets and when questioned can just say 'I'm a woman'. It basically removes the point of a women's toilet.

I get Hmm when the debate centralises around the toilets because it's not the point, the issue is with being able to legally turn down a dr for a physical exam, or a counsellor in a rape centre, or a carer because you would prefer someone who is biologically female.

Crazyweimlady · 19/09/2017 14:52

Thanks for the (patient!) responses Smile

I think my conclusion is verging on the OMG side of things now...

I see now why people like Miranda Yardley are getting such a bashing ( I couldn't separate it all out)

So very basically it's all being hijacked and muddied by the ex?transvestite contingent...

I wonder what the 'genuine' transsexual contingent plan to do? Do they want to break away from the now hijacked trans sexual movement?

This is super scary now I think I have a handle on it - the analogy of frogs in a boiling pot someone mentioned is absolutely apt.

Why are women unable to challenge this on the basis of offence like so many other groups do? it hurts my brain.

Thanks again for the discussion- it's great to finally be able to discuss things freely

SentimentalLentil · 19/09/2017 15:05

@Crazyweimlady
A really eye opening experience is to search for the word TERF on twitter and see the atmosphere.

Basically people saying they want to set women on fire if they ask questions like this.

Crazyweimlady · 19/09/2017 15:09

Should I provide the petrol and matches or will they bring their own?!

Christ the censorious zeitgeist is terrifying.

SentimentalLentil · 19/09/2017 15:12

This isn't even the most upsetting tweet but I thought I'd give it as an example.

What causes women to become trans activists?
SentimentalLentil · 19/09/2017 15:14

If that's not a woman hating tweet I don't know what is.

HornyTortoise · 19/09/2017 16:03

Its unfortunate that genuine transsexual people are being lumped in with men with fetishes and pisstakers, but thats the way transactivists wanted it I think.

In my mind, a 'genuine' transsexual would not WANT to impose on female people in jobs such as rape crisis counseling, sex specific carers and so on. As they are not stupid, they know they cannot actually change sex, but their dysphoria makes them feel better with a more female looking body, and thats fine! Its only when the rights of females are threatened that I have a problem...people should be free to get whatever surgeries they like, dress how they like and such.

There seems to be a bit of a divide between feminists about post-op trans people...personally I would have no issue with these people using female loos, changing rooms and that (but definitely NOT in the jobs I outlines above...but I don't think 'genuine' trans people would even want to do them)...but its something that needs to be spoke about, and females actually consulted on...rather than just steamrollered ahead as every voice needs to be heard. Women who have been raped and such need to have their voices heard too...not be written off as transphobic bigots.

HornyTortoise · 19/09/2017 16:05

Also the problem with loos, changing rooms and such is that transsexual people have already been using these spaces for years, as kind of an honour system with females. It works fine as it is, why do we need laws about it?

HornyTortoise · 19/09/2017 16:13

I wonder what the 'genuine' transsexual contingent plan to do? Do they want to break away from the now hijacked trans sexual movement?

The problem is, any transsexual person who speaks up is bombarded with the same threats that women endure for speaking up and questioning ANY aspect of the whole ridiculous argument. Hell try going on twitter and saying that the penis is not a female body part...within minutes you will have rape threats, death threats the lot (I don't recommend ACTUALLY doing this as the abuse is vile. Its just an example)

So the transsexual people are bullied into silence, like these men try to do with women. And so transactivists can pretend that they are helping these very same people who they have threatened into silence. Its just disgusting really and the amount of people who cannot see this is insane.

HornyTortoise · 19/09/2017 16:14

Transsexual people who break away from this stupid thing are branded 'truscum' (really..search that too...)...infact I think 'truscum' is used to describe any trans person who actually has sex dysphoria. So, ANY actual transsexual :S

ReanimatedSGB · 19/09/2017 16:36

It's also, actually, worth bearing in mind that a lot of transvestites don't want to be associated with these aggressive, attention-seeking arseholes. There have always been people who liked to dress up as a member of the opposite sex, either as a (CONSENSUAL) kink thing, or to relax, or just for the fun of it.

I have also seen and heard, in the past, some fairly nasty, self-righteous and wilfilly ignorant guff from some people who consider themselves radical feminists (not just on the subject of trans rights) - but NOTHING which compares to the stuff you hear from this transactivist lot.

grannytomine · 19/09/2017 16:40

Does anyone know anything about how transmen are getting on in the "male world"? The ones I know are getting on fine, they are quite young so who knows in the long run?

PricklyBall · 19/09/2017 16:46

"It's also, actually, worth bearing in mind that a lot of transvestites don't want to be associated with these aggressive, attention-seeking arseholes."

Absolutely, SGB. And it's the whole gaslighting, dishonesty business. I salute, for instance, Greyson Perry's honesty about his cross dressing and the sexual motivations behind it. And I don't find it threatening, because he's honest about it, and gives no sign that he's wanting to violate my boundaries by the fact that he likes wearing dresses. It's the autogynophile trans person who demands that I validate his belief that he's a woman who wants to violate boundaries, and lie to me, and get me to lie as well, that I find threatening.

Datun · 19/09/2017 16:50

There is a Facebook page called Exposing Trans Activists. It is the number one enemy page of transactivists everywhere, and they successfully manage to get them regularly suspended by bombarding Facebook with complaints.

The page does nothing but collate the things that transactivists say, from the rest of social media.

When I first saw it, I thought the comments were little harsh. Sometimes they still are. But they're not wrong. The things TRAs say are hair raisingly awful. And there are so, so many of them.

What's worrying about this is that despite a lot of these people coming across as unstable (like those of last week's violence), it is these very people who want, and will be granted access.

It's one of the most ironic pieces of legislation I can think off. Only the people who represent a threat will use it. Men who aren't interested in violating women's boundaries, won't. They just won't. They will not use this legislation.

Miranda Yardley doesn't. Most genuine transpeople say they only use female facilities if they pass. If they are therefore not intimidating to women. That it's not cool to demand entry. That it's not cool to intimidate women and make them feel uncomfortable.

So who's it for then?

One thing I do know, I searched the entire 98 page report that Maria Miller published and not only was autogynephilia unaddressed, it wasn't even mentioned.

In 98 pages.

I've never had such an uncomfortable feeling when I realised that there are people making laws in this country who are genuinely this ignorant. Self-interest, I can understand, in a cynical way. But desperately uninformed, dangerous ignorance is worse.

This law is being considered by people who are completely blind.

Datun · 19/09/2017 16:57

Well exactly. Grayson Perry was interviewed by the Telegraph about his cross dressing sexual kick.

Quite openly. He does not identify as trans, nor does he identify as a woman. He certainly doesn't think women should centre him in feminism!!

He wouldn't dream of using women's toilets, nor demanding people call him female. And he's fast becoming a national treasure!

And no one cares. Crack on.

Datun · 19/09/2017 17:02

I've just read on another thread the difference between a kink and a fetish, which I hadn't realised.

A kink is something that's nice to have, generally harmless, and you can enjoy sex perfectly well without it.

A fetish is a prerequisite for satisfactory sex. Sex doesn't work without it.

Autogynephilia is a fetish.

I knew it was a compulsion, very strong, but I hadn't realised the distinction.

ReanimatedSGB · 19/09/2017 18:34

Datun: By that definition, monogamy, romantic love and marriage are fetishes ;)
Admittedly many people use the term quite loosely, but there isn't anything inherently wrong with having a fetish, even if it's of the most hardcore (can't have sex without it) type. So long as you can either wank over your fetish or find a willing partner to share it with you, what does it matter to anyone else?

PricklyBall · 19/09/2017 18:48

SGB, I frequently joke with my friends (who're into the kink scene) that I have a vanilla kink!

TimbuktuTimbuktu · 19/09/2017 22:46

The thing that is really awful about the whole thing is that the "truscum" real transsexuals are facing the backlash. We have been accepting them as women as a courtesy for a long time. An honour system as someone mentioned above. However this has led to a situation where we have given an inch and another and another until we are now being told to "suck on my girl dick" by trans lesbians.

At which point we have all had to ask ourselves what makes a woman and decide that logically it's chromosomes and female sexual organs. The absence of a penis doesn't make a man a woman. If your dad/brother/son lost their genitals in a freak accident tomorrow then we wouldn't insist they had suddenly become a woman. He would still be a man.

Men who have gone through puberty will always be bigger, stronger and faster on average than women and shouldn't play against them in competitive sports. Regardless of the status of their genitals.

I don't really care that much about toilets but it's not about that anymore. It's about boundaries and being able to say no.

Biology is real. Sex differences are real. Men cannot become women.

Once you think about it you realise that you knew this all along.

Datun · 19/09/2017 22:48

Today 18:34 ReanimatedSGB

Datun: By that definition, monogamy, romantic love and marriage are fetishes ;)

How are they? You don't need monogamy, love or marriage to have fulfilling sex.

Datun · 19/09/2017 22:50

TimbuktuTimbuktu

Well exactly. I've never had to think so hard in all my life about what makes men, men and women, women. I thought it was painfully obvious. (Which it is).

ReanimatedSGB · 20/09/2017 09:07

Datun: But some people do. Some people cannot enjoy sex unless they believe the other participant loves them/will always love them/is married to them.
I don't have a shoe fetish for example, but some people do. The fact that I don't need to be wearing shoes to enjoy sex doesn't mean that shoe fetishism doesn't exist.