What causes women to become trans activists?

[TheChampagneGalop]

I mean the type of activists that appeared to disrupt the recent meeting about gender in London.

From what I've read about this incident in Speaker's corner there were more women than men protesting and harassing women trying to go to that meeting.
I watched the video and the male violence was of course disturbing and alarming (and criminal!), but the mindless mantra chants from the women about terfs also disturbed me.

I think you're over-analysing but a few posters have hit the nail. I was a TRA. Very much "real feminists are trans inclusive!!" "Your feminism is bs if it doesn't include..."

It's as simple as it seeming like the natural progressive step, if you support women's & lgb rights. Naturally you also want to believe that why SHOULDN'T someone have the freedom to be whoever they want to be. And you don't consider shades of grey, not thinking this is akin to being a religious conservative nut that thinks men must remain real men cos god sez so.

Additionally you'll probably in a sjw environment which IS cultish. It's why every person who comes on here is so fucking dramatic and emotional. Do you ever see someone come on here, offer a reasoned calm view without hyperbole?
It's because seeing views like this is terrifying. You are never exposed to it - the outside world is viewed as those who are indifferent and therefore complicit in harm, right wingers/violent men and terfs who for whatever reason are the worst of the worst, and are responsible for actual violence. I think it's because the rw is irrational and no one in the cult would swing that way. But there is rationality in gender criticism and it's basically the voice yelling "the emperor has no clothes" which they really don't want.

So you are never exposed to this view and when you come across it you think it comes from miseducation, bigotry, all you need to do is just read this one article - not realising all the academic lit we've probably read. When you're then confronted with "why did we need to invent words for terms we already have?" "What is a woman?" You ever seen an answer that was unique? Man it's terrifying the answers are always "a woman is anyone who identifies as one" and with any further pressing, the whole house of cards collapses. So they'll either start really questioning and running away in fear to go back to the safety of the cult and the ideas that don't scare them. Because being a TERF is a terrifying thought. No one wants to be responsible for the death of hundreds of trans people, all you want to do is do good.

Only way out is to be exposed to radical ideology and realise you really can't answer those questions. I was always anti porn and very, anti-sex positivity culture. So I read a lot of blogs and lamented how "terfy" they were. I lamented how terfy MN is. But more and more I couldn't answer "whats the difference between transgender and transracial" and the TRA side answers were increasingly flimsy. Now, I am firmly out the woods.

So there you go.

I think patriarchy does oppress everyone. Women, obviously. But also men who don't conform to patriarchal values. And men, who do conform, by selling them lies - although this is more tenuous, as the suffering and persecution there is a moot point.

I think arguments which engage in 'top trumps' in terms of suffering and persecution are always going to end badly, though. It should be avoided in my opinion. Talking in general terms can really minimise the real lived suffering and persecution experienced by individuals. Which, understandably, offends.

It also wholly aligns expressing an opinion that is not 'nice' or on message to the hearer with actual physical violence.

What's happening in the world of trans men, by the way, does anyone know?

I thought the same as you, spaghetti - along the axes of oppression, there has to be a point to the oppression - and that's the extraction of something, usually labour, from the oppressed class.

Which is why it makes no sense that "cis" (sic) women oppress transwomen, because, well - they don't have anything we want, so what would be the point?

It's funny. I used to come on here and shout "TERF". But the more I have thought about it, the more gender critical I have become and now I firmly believe that anyone with a penis shouldn't be in women only spaces. Sorry about that MN! Keep going, you are getting the message through to some x

Great post, fauchelevent!

For many, everything is black and white. They see trans as oppressed, therefore anybody who isn't totally accepting is the oppressor. Comments show that many aren't even listening to alternative opinions.

Despite the clothing, trans ideology is very gender conforming. That's why their focus is on the women who aren't fulfilling their role of looking after everyone and putting men first.

That's really good to hear, fruitcider! It's not easy to change your mind, harder still to admit it, so fair play to you for being able to do it.

That's why their focus is on the women who aren't fulfilling their role of looking after everyone and putting men first.

But that is ironic too - if they label those women as 'trans', as they don't conform to sexual stereotypes, suddenly they are part of their group.

Yet when, those not conforming to sexual stereotypes acknowledge and identify with their biological sex, they suddenly become the 'enemy'.

I have this conversation all the time with a family friend who is trans. She calls everyone cis at every opportunity and I'm like do you want to be called a trans woman every time I mention you or do you want me to call you a woman? Because I'm finding it hard to understand if you want to be a woman equal to me or if you want to actually dethrone me as the 'real'
woman.
But she also thinks sex is a social construct and I'm the one who's mistaken soooooooo you know

I also get tired of her pointing things out to me about feminism like I've never thought about it, I always just say yes I know, I'm a woman.

She's an odd one anyway because she's on the autistic spectrum and came to be trans very late in life and found it through the fetish community. She has bought hormones of the internet almost immediately after finding it and I'm sure the hormones are reinforcing her idea of being confused in her body. Like of course you feel weird in your body you've taken a shit load of hormones.

I also find it so annoying because certain things about being a man she's retained (I'm not even joking one of these things is offering to drive you out of tight parking spaces when you haven't asked, shown no signs of not being able to, and having been driving over 35 years and drives over a 300 miles a week, she did this is my mother who just rolled her eyes) and she LOVES the confusion she causes, we had this awful experience in a shop once where she was flirting outrageously with a shop assistant who was being out in such a difficult position because he wasn't flirting back but also didn't want to appear rude or transphobic but was obviously uncomfortable. I don't think his discomfort came from the fact she is a transsexual but more just that he didn't want people making reference to his cock at work.

I've known her as both a man and a woman and she was an odd man as well but I think it's worrying that people can just buy the hormones off the internet unregulated.

Lots of interesting replies, especially from you Fauchelevent!
Can I ask how you got into this "SJW environment"?
Is this mostly an University thing?
The cultishness is frightening, trans activists have an enormous influence if they make sure so many young women aren't "allowed" to be exposed to different ideas such as actual feminism.

Has anyone on here watched 'Transparent'? It covers some of these issues but my no means all. I enjoyed watching it and will watch the new series. I think the character development is interesting.

I'm sure being trans is often really hard, day to day. Feeling like you don't fit in, people staring, reactions from friends and family, discrimination at work. In many cases, as we know, there is a correlation between being trans and pre-existing mental health conditions. The many testimonies on MN from mothers of teenage girls identifying as trans boys make clear that these are not generally happy adolescents.

Life generally is easier as a non-trans person (unless you're Caitlyn Jenner) and that's where all the shouts of cis privilege come from. You don't have to accept the transactivist gospel to understand that.

@onecrazycook
You say 'These are people who have gone through huge personal trauma in an attempt to come to terms with the idea that they may have been born with the wrong gender.'
But why are they trying to change their sex then?

champagne sort of. I'm a young(er) gimmer, so about half a decade or so ago I was very into tumblr and what it did do was get me out of that casual internalised sexism hell hole that I was in from school, where casual sexism made you a Cool Girl. But slowly the more you read, the more you see things like "all cis people are oppressive, all trans people are oppressed damsels" and they're from people you respect and are well regarded. So you trust their view, and get sucked in. And it's from these social media spaces that the echo chamber begins. It's why the community works the way it does, also because you won't encounter a lot of right wingers on a day to day in internet circles, but radical feminists yes. So they are the worst. A lot of the worldviews are shaped by looking at the microcosm that is the internet then projecting it out to real life. They don't realise that most people don't give much of a thought to their "gender" beyond "do i have a vagina, yup, looks like i'm a woman and it doesn't mean i have to be any type of person as a result." No, rather they really think these mini-genders of "oh well i just don't feeeeel like a woman but i don't feeeel like a man" are useful, not realising the only place this "feeling like..." exists is online.

I wasn't very social at uni but I hated the fem soc until a few people did what they could, it was so wishy washy. But reading academic lit at uni actually challenged by TRA view.

I have a lot of friends who would be mortified to know and like many others I'd be subjected to ostracism - blocking, no platforming and being forced out of circled with anyone who still socialises with me shunned

At one point, the trans person in 'Transparent' goes to a feminist camp festival. Because they identify as a (trans) feminist woman. Needless to say, this does not go completely well, without hitches. I sometimes muse about how I would write some of the scenarios of the plot.

But slowly the more you read, the more you see things like "all cis people are oppressive, all trans people are oppressed damsels" and they're from people you respect and are well regarded. So you trust their view, and get sucked in. And it's from these social media spaces that the echo chamber begins.

This is what I was trying to say with my post as well; that's what I think has happened with those I know of who've fully taken in the trans activist line. They've read so much of this now and for so long that any deviation from it is unacceptable and probably makes you a "TERF" who's oppressing trans people.

Very interesting thread, the female support for the erasure of women as a class is something that needs to be discussed so we can understand and tackle it. But I think the idea that trans women are the same as born women has muddied the waters as women want to be seen as supporting other women, and the trans women happen to have the most power to have their voice heard due to male privilege

The whole trans thing was just taking off when I was at university, the young women who were already very conscious to be seen as involved with the LGB (the t arrived during my time at uni) were the ones who became handmaidens of trans activists. They were very much of the opinion that women had achieved equality to men now and were no longer oppressed in a meaningful way, whereas trans individuals were and so women should lend their support as a more powerful section of society. I think because we were so young, and these women were from hugely privileged sections of society (had been to elite boarding schools or had come to the uk to study from abroad) they simply hadn't any experience of the struggles women still face, as many of them come with age, wider experience and particularly motherhood. Their being female had never caused them any issues in doing what they wanted, and they didn't ever want to admit it was their wealth and the privileges that comes with that had protected them from sexism. The working class girls notably did not get involved, I imagine because they had experienced more difficulties in life due to being female than the uber privileged individuals who shouted the loudest to signal their virtue.

nolove exactly. The statistics they trot out are horrifying - and parroted so often (backed up by questionable articles) that -since you came here to do good, of couuurse you want to rally on their side. And you came here to do good, so you want to be the best "oppressive cis person" you can, and it involved the appropriate fawning and self-flagellation, a lot of it performative so everyone knows and sees you're being a good ally and furthering the cause because if you aren't you're complicit in lots of murders.

And if you say something solely like
"I support women"
someone will be along right away to say "And don't forget to support your SISTERS not just your cis-ters!!"

If you mention vaginas "but don't forget, not all women have vaginas!!"

That's exactly it Fauchelevent. They accept it seems unquestioningly these statistics because to query them would be "transphobic" or "cis privilege" so they must be completely accepted, as must the notion not using preferred pronouns is "actual violence". Soon enough "trans women must be centred in feminism" has been absorbed so greatly that it's almost all you can talk about, no discussion possible without adding "but it's worse for trans people", issues such as abortion rights and periods having to be discussed without stipulating they're particularly relevant to women, being seen to be a "good cis ally" more important than real feminism...it's infuriating. I also see these allies sharing every post about apparent slights on trans people but being far less vocal about, say, male violence. From my point of view I also worry about it because that's the attitude from most in the Feminist Society at my school, which girls from quite young years can attend, so it worries me young girls could potentially be almost indoctrinated with this.

FruitCider

I'm in a vegan feminist group on Facebook that's aaaaaall about the intersectionality and it's frightening how much self flagellation goes on, I have wondered sometimes if it's bordering on sexual.

People tearing themselves and each other to shreds about literally nothing.

We had a woman post the other day saying she had seen a to show that she really liked but was worried there might be something 'problematic' in it that she wasn't seeing and could people come on and tell her if she should like it or not

They are ALL about not saying things about women's bodies so you have to say pregnant person etc, when I point out that surely in a vegan group people could see it was sex and not gender, is a female cow kept in the conditions she's in because her she identifies as female or because of her actual biological sex? They come at me with pitch forks.

I try to point out that to be able to transcend your sex and identify as something else is actually an incredibly privileged position and means no one is trying to exploit you for your biological functions, and for millions of women across the world they don't have the luxury to question their gender, they just don't get it.

It ends up with no one able to say anything in fear of not including someone, so you end up not saying anything and just half nodding and hoping no one notices you.
It's really frightening actually because these are smart women who have switched off their critical thinking.

"Life generally is easier as a non-trans person (unless you're Caitlyn Jenner) and that's where all the shouts of cis privilege come from. You don't have to accept the transactivist gospel to understand that."

How is it possible to measure transphobia against misogyny? How does anyone know that life is harder for MTT than it is for women?

BitterLittlePoster

I'm not surprised by your post. Statistically trans people have a whopping 87% risk of comorbid mental health issues, the highest of which is narcissism.

It's no coincidence that there are thousands of memes out there saying that if you're talking to a trans person, all you will ever talk about is them being trans.

SophoclesTheFox and spaghetti.

As far as I'm aware that is the definition of oppression. There has to be a material gain for the oppressor. Otherwise what's the point?

It would be fruitless oppressing women if no one gained from it. Likewise transpeople. No one gains. They're not oppressed. They confuse discrimination and prejudice with oppression.

If they have a high risk of comorbid mental health issues, are suicidally unstable, and very narcissistic, it's not surprising that people will react accordingly. And I'm not talking about genuine transphobia, shouting fucking tranny in the street, that's hateful.

Not wanting to talk endlessly to a narcissistic man isn't.