What causes women to become trans activists?

[TheChampagneGalop]

I mean the type of activists that appeared to disrupt the recent meeting about gender in London.

From what I've read about this incident in Speaker's corner there were more women than men protesting and harassing women trying to go to that meeting.
I watched the video and the male violence was of course disturbing and alarming (and criminal!), but the mindless mantra chants from the women about terfs also disturbed me.

I'll play!

Bet s/he's a plopper though.

Some of it might come from having a trans mate or two. (Remember, not all transpeople are arseholes, either). Some of it, for the younger ones, is just a lack of understanding/experience - it's not that difficult for anti-trans viewpoints to be portrayed as just as unfair and nasty as racist/sexist/homophobic ones - to the young, it's as simple as 'why are you being horrible to someone who just wants to live in a way that makes them happy?'
Then you add in a healthy dose of the kind of vitriol that social media (especially Twitter) seems to foment, and you get this sort of thing.

What bothers me quite a lot is the way that so much of any discussion about gender, identity, sexuality etc is so frequently portrayed as transwomen versus feminists - two groups who might, really, have more in common than things to hate about each other. Both groups are at risk from the violence of cismen, for instance. I wonder why it's such a big deal to reduce it all down to feminists versus transwomen as in: who benefits from this being the main flashpoint? Why is there never any discussion about whether transmen who are sexually attracted to men get barred from gay men's clubs? What about all the individuals who are gender-non-conforming, or who like to cross-dress from time to time, or consider themselves asexual/agender/sexless beings?

A part of it might also be down to the fact that some people are just bullying arseholes. The sudden rapid increase in talking about the paradox of tolerance and the 'need' to 'punch Nazis' is also going to encourage more violence from people who think they are utterly in the right. (Though it's probably worth noting that, in all the upheavals around Trump and Yiannopolous and Charlottesville, despite all the handwringing about the violent behaviour of antifa types, the only people who have been beaten up, hurt or killed in these clashes were... the anti-fascists.)

If they are 16-25, aren't they quite high-risk for abusive relationships at that age? So they may not be in relationships but maybe in their friendships they are just easily manipulated and have low self-esteem and want to fit/have friends etc.

Also at that age they haven't had seen/experienced the fight for gay rights and so perhaps feel this is their equivalent and want to do what they feel is the right thing. (Obviously it's still very much not equal, but compared to homosexuality being illegal and no marriage/civil p'ships etc).

I remember a friend (in her 20s) saying sometime last year she found a man at work really pro trans (he was "cis" as they say) to an extent she found it and I was like oh maybe he just really wants to support a marginalised group but now I would be really critical. I had no idea and am also glad I saw it first through MN.

Not at all Love. It was me in some tired 'Whyyy Don't You?' thing

And off...

Perhaps some (younger) women become trans activists because they are too inexperienced to get what some men are really capable of, or able to recognise misogyny for what it is. A few years down the line and a couple of abusive relationships later; of being on the end of narcissistic reversal and they might be less trusting.
Women are socialised to deny their natural fear of men anyway, it's all too easy for them to idealise. That's not to say that all trans men are wolves in sheeps clothing (so to speak!) but there is something very ugly about the movement and the naked hatred directed at 'cis' women that gives the worst of them away.

Don't you realise how ridiculous it is to protest against someone's sexuality, or life choices?

Nobody is protesting against anyone’s sexuality or life choices. Unless your “life choices” include forcing men into women’s space.

Calling the trans community a CULT is fucking despicable.

Why? It quite clearly is a cult. It has a ludicrous dogma and those who question it are subjected to endless haranguing, often demanding that people denounce their “heretic” friends.

These are people who have gone through huge personal trauma in an attempt to come to terms with the idea that they may have been born with the wrong gender.

Nobody is born with a gender. You’re only born with a sex and you can’t be born the wrong sex. You’re born the sex you are, and that’s it.

Hope that has cleared up some of the chasms between trans dogma and reality for you.

Once the T was tagged onto the LGB women where onto a loser.

Actually does this whole Transgender thing not wipe out bisexuality?

The whole things a bad joke anyway, I'm very far from a feminist but how on earth can some fella claim to be the same as my mother who had and reared 4 boys and fought breast cancer? It's absurd.

Women are too 'nice'. Buying into this shite. Men I know call this the bs that it is but the women mostly bend over backwards for it.

It's bizarre.

1. no one is protesting against trans people. No one.
   Once more for the cheap seats at the back, nobody is trying to stop transexuals existing. In fact I would fight to the death for their right to present themselves in any way they want to, they can call themselves by any name, wear whatever clothes, and I'll call them by whatever pronoun they choose.

2. and this is the big one.

GENDER IS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT

As in, it only exists because we say it does. It's a cultural thing that's is fluid and changes with time and geography the idea of the gender construct of a woman is different in depending on your context. Literally you can get an aeroplane and the idea of a woman will be completely different to the one you're used to.
You are not born with a gender, you are born with a sex. The biological definition of a women in regards to sex does not change with time or geography, that stays the same because it is a tangible and real thing.

Gender is oppressive for both men and women but especially for women.
We need to remove the shackles of gender so everybody can be free to do and wear and be whatever they like without being expected to conform to societies idea of 'that's what your gender does'.

When someone says they 'feel like a woman' what does that mean? What does that boil down to? Usually it means that they most identify with the social constructed idea of a woman, when we allow that to happen without questioning it we are not breaking down gender we are building it up we are reinforcing it, saying that yes you like dresses and are sensitive you must be a woman because that's what a woman is.

There are many issues that affect women BECAUSE of their sex. Things like pregnancy and abortion and periods, things that women need to be able to talk about without the conversation being derailed and cries of transphobia when we say things like 'abortions are a women's issue', we need to be able to claim them as 'women's issues' because that is exactly what they are, how are we expected for things to get better for the female sex and their autonomy over their bodies if we can't even call say what a female body is.

I seriously can't stress this enough, this fight is not about closing people's freedoms down it's about freeing everyone of the bullshit shackles of gender so we can all just be who we want to be.

Because they didn't know of this

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3029564-Pop-stars-were-gorgeous-in-1984

I'm older than that so my interests were first triggered by The Sweet in the 1970s, and my fondness for long hair and eyeliner on men has, well, never gone away.
And I've got trans friends (transmen as well as transwomen). They're nice people (or they wouldn't be my friends.)

Actually, the transactivists I have personally encountered who have annoyed me the most have actually been ciswomen - people who have this self-righteous, zealous, purge-your-own-ranks-of-traitors vile mindset that has always been present in some allegedly progressive people. If someone had given these fuckers different books to read in their formative years, they would quite probably have been just as much of a nuisance to others but allied themselves with conservative politics. You get it a lot in allegedly leftwing men, who come in their pants when they spy an opportunity to let loose with some misogyny against a woman who is (or can be portrayed as) right-wing - or just a tiny bit less Marxist than they consider themselves to be.

Women are taught to please men from birth.

"Be good for daddy"
"Whos a good daddys girl"
"Isnt your daddy good for taking you to school"

Girls are taught to conform to men.
They are "good" when they are quite and do not talk back.
Nice girls are good girls.
Good girls do as they are told.

Women who fall in line do so because they are taught.
Femminists were taught the same way but woke up and said fuck this, other women have not yet woken up.

I'm in complete agreement with almost every answer here. I'm sure it's a mixture of all of it.

EamonnWright

The trans-ideology erases sexual orientation as a concept in its entirety. Gender is the basis for attraction, not sex.

So transwomen who are attracted to women demand lesbians sleep with them lest they be considered transphobic. Erasing lesbianism as an orientation.

That's the main one, because it's mostly straight men who want to sleep with women who are driving this.

But the natural extension of that is that gay men should sleep with transmen with a vagina, straight men should sleep with transwomen and straight women should sleep with transmen.

Of course, on every dating website for transwomen who want to sleep with women, they put 'no trans' unequivocably in their profile. Because the ideology is a complete lie, and they have no intention of sleeping with someone whose gender is female, but whose sex is male.

Transwomen lesbians should be very happy dating one another. But of course they don't, because they're not gay men.

*I'm in complete agreement with almost every answer here. I'm sure it's a mixture of all of it.

EamonnWright

The trans-ideology erases sexual orientation as a concept in its entirety. Gender is the basis for attraction, not sex.

So transwomen who are attracted to women demand lesbians sleep with them lest they be considered transphobic. Erasing lesbianism as an orientation.

That's the main one, because it's mostly straight men who want to sleep with women who are driving this.

But the natural extension of that is that gay men should sleep with transmen with a vagina, straight men should sleep with transwomen and straight women should sleep with transmen.

Of course, on every dating website for transwomen who want to sleep with women, they put 'no trans' unequivocably in their profile. Because the ideology is a complete lie, and they have no intention of sleeping with someone whose gender is female, but whose sex is male.

Transwomen lesbians should be very happy dating one another. But of course they don't, because they're not gay men.*

Thank you, although it's hard to understand.

Why is any of this nonsense taken seriously? King Billy with a blindfold on whilst riding a galloping horse can see it's bullshit...

It's so obviously nonsense I actually laugh at a lot of it.

Like other delurkers, I don't really post because I'm not convinced I'll get my thoughts across clearly. This is something I've noticed and been thinking about lately, so I'm going to give it a try.

Since her early teens, my DD18's friend group has included kids who have these new "identities". In their early teens there were a bunch of kids who decided they were trans. Back then (13, 14ish) the other kids all were tolerant and supportive and all on the bandwagon for fighting oppression the trans kids were suffering and their rights. Etc. etc. all the usual.

Now that they're older teens things have shifted a bit. Some aren't trans anymore. But the ones who still are? The non trans kids are still tolerant but they're backing away. They don't seek out their company because it's all trans all the time. They're tired of it. They're kind to these kids but they don't want to hear it anymore. It's boring.

Most of these kids are starting their first year of Uni. When they meet someone new who claims to be trans, they know what that really means. Never mind if there's such a thing as ladybrain or if you've always felt like a boy, if you become friends with this person it's going to be all about them all the time. Any issue you might be struggling with pales in comparison to the fact that mom referred to them as "him" when talking to Auntie or dad keeps dead naming them.

I'd like them to be as upset as I am about gendered brains and all that shit but I'm hopeful they'll come around to it eventually. There's definitely a new crop young people who are getting trans fatigue.

Well said Timbuktu.

That's interesting Bitter. My eldest is a student and has a pretty eclectic bunch of friends, many of them arty types and I nervously broached the subject with him. He sighed and said "Mum, it's people who have way too much time on their hands" . He has close friends who are gay and sees the difference between that and declaring yourself "queer" because you have purple hair or something.

I would imagine that it is because they are very close to some people that are trans. I think it must be a horrible situation, in a highly gendered society, there is no easy fit for them.

Really, though, the argument, as I see it, is in the solution. The feminist choice would be for an equal society where women (and men) are free from patriarchal oppression. Gender would cease as people, of either sex, would be free to express their sex without conforming, in any way to gender stereotypes.

The solution we, as a society, seem to be gravitating towards, currently, seems to be to let people declare their gender is opposite to their sex. However, this of course, problematically, reinforces traditional, oppressive sexual stereotypes. Which adds to the problem.

I think the confusion arises in vociferous argument. The contention begins when it perceived that feminists have no sympathy regarding the problems people face, when they don't fit sexual stereotypes. When, really, I think, where we differ is the opinion on what the solution should be. Yet, it is hard because sexual stereotypes, within society, will not be changed overnight. Until then people will suffer oppression.

Oh and it is so ironic, when people of the male sex, want to express themselves, according to female sexual stereotypes, they feel oppressed. And then this turns to violence. Against women.

That is exactly the same oppression women have experiences for centuries! But who is blamed? Feminists...not the patriarchal society that creates this oppression.

I see there is conflict between women who want to retain 'safe spaces', in fear of male aggressors, and trans who want to enter safe spaces, in fear of male aggressors. But what is the problem here? Male pattern aggression, not women who want to keep 'safe spaces'. If we didn't gave this, as a feature of society, all spaces would be safe.

Big mess, the whole lot of it.

SentientCushion: "It's about starting feminism in the middle"

YES!

I think it comes from seeing feminism as a fashionable/"right on" kind of viewpoint, rather than coming into feminism because you've noticed inequality exists and suddenly feel angry about it.

There's a slogan popular among some people I know (though it's mostly used against homophobes and in favour of things like gay marriage) - Equal rights for others doesn't mean fewer rights for you. It's not pie.

Because as a concept that's generally true. Allowing gay couples to marry takes nothing away from heterosexual couples' marriages, for example.

But sometimes there is an actual or potential clash of rights/needs. It's not so much pie as funding that's the problem. There are going to be, for example, transpeople in need of refuge places as they flee abusive relationships (just as there is a need for refuge places for cismen in abusive relationships). The right answer is 'set up and fund more refuges for everyone', not 'cut down the number of places available to ciswomen and give them to transpeople/cismen.'

I am very old, and I can remember when some feminists got very excited about gay rights. I think the long ongoing slog of feminism got a bit boring, and it was good to have something new and shiny to play with.

And it was OK to metaphorically and actually make the tea for gay men because they weren't misogynist, they were oppressed too.........

I keep hearing that trans are oppressed - but I'm struggling to see how.

My understanding of oppression was that it required the oppressors to be actually extracting labour from the opressees - ie. the oppressors should materially gain whilst the oppressees lose.

So women are oppressed by men because by getting us to do all the wifework they gain benefit from our work.

What do 'cis' people gain from trans people? What labour are we extracting from them?

OK - I've done what I should have done before and googled, and I'm wrong - it's just persecution. I have no idea where I got that idea from.. perhaps because of thinking of things like 'peasants being oppressed' there's always an amount of working for the lord of the manor included.

As you were.

I seem to be going off half-cocked a lot on word definitions recently....

The confused idiology is around privilege, 'cis' women are privileged over trans women because they were born biological women. So the oppression is saying anything that implies trans women are not 'real' women or doing anything like talking about menstruation that is triggering because they can't menstruate, which is 'literal violence' and 'erasing them' which is 'the same as murder'. This justifying the whole punch a (biological woman who doesn't fall over herself to put trans first) terf.

Or something. It's not easy to comprehend, it's not coherent, logical or rational.

And it was OK to metaphorically and actually make the tea for gay men because they weren't misogynist, they were oppressed too

Or as I like to refer to it, my university years I'm straight, but I was all in for gay rights back in the days when it was Gaysoc, latterly LGB (no T in those days). Sometimes it took over from my feminism - I was, shamefully, a bit of a cool girl feminist. Oh, 1992 version Baby Sophocles, your heart was in the right place, but you were a bit of a nob, love.

I like to think I've always been too sharp to have been taken in by the intellectual paucity of transactivism, but then I have always been a champion of the underdog and it's very easy to guilt me into caretaking others before myself, so I suspect that the younger me might well have gone to bat for trans rights...