This morning - parents questioning gender identity stuff

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Two parents taking school to industrial tribunal for allowing a boy to attend school in a dress just got fairly slated by Phil & Holly. I found it the most frustrating 5 minutes of tv I've seen in a while. I'm short on time... but wondered if anyone else saw it & what you thought?

Don't know enough about the parents/situation to say I fully agree with their stance. But they seemed reasonable. It was frustrating to get caught up on the dress issue. Wear a dress all you like but It is unreasonable to expect children to understand and accept you as a girl one day and a boy the next boy a daily basis. It was the shutting down of debate that was stark to me...

My take on this is that the parents were wrong and foolish to head for court on this - it is essentially shaming a child and is unkind. It is also incredibly unhelpful as of course people will look at this and see the unkindness and therefore condemn them.

This then obliterates the real issue which is about parents deciding that a young child is changing their sex rather than simply allowing them to explore life, clothing, roles, identity etc. All the things that growing up entails.

I believe that there's an issue of safeguarding involved with attempts to label such young children as transgender - but that debate won't get heard while people like this head to the courts in this manner.

The school is clearly at fault here for pandering to the thought process that the wearing of a dress indicates that that child is female. The parents are bigots and intolerant.

I feel sorry for the children.

A clip from Victoria Derbyshire. With a woman who has fathered children.

The parents here are not very articulate but it has taken most of us a while to be schooled in gender politics and the tricks the TRAs pull. I feel sorry for them

twitter.com/VictoriaLIVE/status/907172547812139008

The person who has fathered children regularly changes gender. They post blogs in both genders.

No one asked them what was wrong with a boy wearing a dress.

I mean, really. It would be the first question on my mind.

I don't like the implications of teaching a child that if you wear a certain article of clothing that makes you male/female!
I'm wearing trousers today. Am I a man for the day then???
I'm all for children exploring and dressing up and expressing themselves, but why should be label them for it?
Let them just be children fgs.
I once looked after a boy who enjoyed going out dressed as a fairy and putting bobbles in his hair, but I didn't tell him he was a girl! 😀 He was just a young boy expressing himself x

In regards to school, uniform is uniform.
Personally I'd say shorts or trousers for all pupils and take out the dress option anyway.

No I know Elendon and they might well be opposed to a boy wearing a dress because of notions of gender roles. But in other interviews they seem knowledgable of trans issues but that it shouldn't be a factor for children of this age. I don't think they are great media luvvies and have performed badly. Perhaps this is deliberate given the pro trans position of much of the MSM.

Hate to make it out to be conspiratorial but then media have form for it on this

The impression I've had all day from media brief overviews of the story: Extreme Christian nutters pull their child out of school because they're freaked out by a boy in a dress, and their child is confused by it. Which made me think irritably, that confusion was not exactly insurmountable, get over silly gender stereotypes, boys can wear whatever they want.

BBC news article on their website more than slightly different: the issue was their child and family questioning and not believing that a boy can turn into a girl. And a mention of their child being in trouble for not conforming to this. Which horrifies me.

As does the statement that being 'unable' to believe that a man can become a 'real woman' (whatever the fuck that is) just because he says so is transphobic and illegal.

So:

If I say I believe in God, I can be villified and let the sky fairies comments commence.

If I say a man is a woman because he says so despite all scientific, factual, obvious visual evidence to the contrary - I'm right on and with the programme.

I won't lie. They're going to have to lock me up for that one. I respect people's right to dress any way they want, use any names they want, present themselves any way they want, great. Wonderful. And that should not ever mean they are discriminated against. Am I going to lie about the fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE BIOLOGICAL SEX? No.

I agree with elendon. Both sides attaching an insane amount of significance to a 6 year olds transient clothing preferences. I well remember the day ds at a similar age came downstairs wearing his sisters goldilocks dress and long blonde wig announcing that henceforward he was to be known as Peter. God knows what the TRAs would make of that

In fact, if it's wrong and bad to refuse to believe implicitly in the miracle conversion of male to female then surely it's wrong, bad (and prosecutable) to refuse to believe in the miracle of transubstantiation.

Bread and wine DO turn into actual flesh and actual blood and only the fake appearance of bread and wine remains. Some people believe it. So surely it's wrong, bad and prosecutable to deny that it's possible or say you don't actually believe in that?

Or did we try that out for some hundred years, burn people at the stake a lot and then decide that no, we'd evolved past all that crap?

Ben Shapiro recently had a good rant that he would take violent action if the state were to take action against him and his wife, re their children's 'identity'.

Shapiro also bases his argument on biology, not religion. He is, not unsurprisingly, anti- abortion but again does not bring his religion in to it. I doubt he would have any issue with a boy wanting to wear a dress.

MissHavishham
But we are not obliged to believe that transubstantiation if true. And it isn't taught in (non catholic) schools. The gender bollocks is being forced upon children and objectors are being labelled as bigots if they don't conform

I started this thread and inarticulately tried to express my dissatisfaction with this situation. It's been better said since on this thread.

I have since noticed Facebook comments on an article about this that proclaimed its simple. Just explain to the children he looks like a boy on the outside but feels like a girl. Feels like a girl. I'm a girl I don't know how it feels. But a primary school aged boy does.

Why can't he just wear a dress. Why do we have to pretend he's a girl?

This whole feels like a girl thing falls apart as soon as it's challenged.

Firstly how do they know. Secondly how can you feel like a girl when every cell of your body is male, including all your anatomy.

If you ask, all they can do is resort to stereotypes. They learnt pretty quickly not to do that. So now the answer is I just do, I can't explain it, but I do.

The most articulate, erudite people, who can describe abstract and existential concepts, simply don't have the words to describe what feeling like a girl is.

Reason? It's not a feeling.

Yes. It's personality.

It's not a feeling or a personality. It's a biological fact.

What would be the procedure in a boarding school where children are segregared into boy/girl houses and dormitories. Could a 16 year old boy who identifies as a girl insist on being housed in a girls house? Girls dorm?

In New Zealand, a 16-year old boy enrolled in a girls' college and won the right to use the female toilets.
www.stuff.co.nz/national/81590796/marlborough-girls-college-transgender-student-stefani-muollogray-to-use-girls-bathroom

*Sorry, i meant, when they claim it's their innate biology it's actually their personality.

'The fact that trans issues can effect prepubescent children (in contrast to LGBQ issues for example) makes it even more difficult to know how to broach the subject appropriately.'

Of course prepubescent children are involved in LGB issues. Many have LGB parents and many are themselves LGB. Many people know their orientation from very young ages. Trans activists seems to be pushing this line that homosexuality is something not to discuss openly with kids so that the kids that express strongly gender variant behaviour, who are far more likely to turn out to be LGB, can be dragged into this whole trans/medical intervention/lifetime of therapy route. It is so messed up.

I was listening to the R4 interview and thought the interviewer was going to say, "Go on, admit it, it's Deuteronomy 22:5 isn't it?" But if the children have to answer "Credo" when told that a boy has miraculously transformed into a girl, and get carted off for some 1984 style re-education if they refuse, then I see their point.

powershowerforanhour

People have asked what happens when these children learn biology. I'm willing to bet that biology lessons will change.

You'll have the normal females have babies, males produce sperm, followed by "but in the case of trans..."

And all those wacky half baked theories of brain structure or hormonal washes will be produced as fact. Or just 'we don't know why'.

I heard them on radio 5 later. As far as I could tell, it wasn't about the dress. It was about their child being told someone in their class was a boy some days and a girl other days. Their child got confused. Children were also told (according to the interview) that they couldn't use the wrong name/pronoun as it was transphobic and they would be in trouble.
Adrian Chiles of course made the parallel with being gay which made me cross.
I thought the parents were fairly inarticulate and it was a huge missed opportunity to discuss some of the issues such as lifelong dependence on medication and invasive surgery plus infertility.

I doubt that they'd have interviewed articulate people.

I imagine if they interviewed one of us we would make a better job of it!

Quentin

I agree they were inarticulate about the issues.

Itsallgoingtobefine posted about it on the other thread, which I thought summed it up well:

"I saw the couple on TV being questioned by some MtF trans person.
They asked the couple what gender their child was, to which the couple replied "boys" And the MtF person then asked "how do you know that?" The couple looked incredulous and then said something about different bodies. Then the MtF person came out with the "aha! It's all about genitals isn't it" leaving the parents floundering helplessly. How on earth do you debate reasonably with someone who is so utterly deluded, and makes these slippery arguments that make you feel like you are in the wrong."

I took me some time to get my head round the gaslighting and manipulation of language the TRAs use. These poor parents looked utterly bewildered and had little means of defending themselves.

I am disgusted with the MSM using their 'Christian' status and ignorance of the trans ideology being used to make them look like bigots. And maybe they are bigots. That still doesn't mean that they and their children should be compelled to tell the lie that a boy can become a girl.