This morning - parents questioning gender identity stuff

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Two parents taking school to industrial tribunal for allowing a boy to attend school in a dress just got fairly slated by Phil & Holly. I found it the most frustrating 5 minutes of tv I've seen in a while. I'm short on time... but wondered if anyone else saw it & what you thought?

Don't know enough about the parents/situation to say I fully agree with their stance. But they seemed reasonable. It was frustrating to get caught up on the dress issue. Wear a dress all you like but It is unreasonable to expect children to understand and accept you as a girl one day and a boy the next boy a daily basis. It was the shutting down of debate that was stark to me...

I'd like to think I'd reply "Of course it's about genitals! How other than biology and reproductive characteristics do we define what sex someone is? Gender is a social construct and not the same thing. Genitals define sex, not personality." However I think I'd probably flounder too. I also think there is an undercurrent of implying that those who use genitals as a part of their definition are some sort of pervert/paedophile when children are concerned.

I wonder how these schools cope with teaching puberty and sex education to children. Will they state that girls have periods? Or say that some girls have periods and its normal for some girls not to have periods? Are schools even allowed to acknowledge that transgirls bodies are very different to girls body's and in fact have boys bodies? How can a school (more secondary than primary) teach safe sex and pregnancy risk while not being transphobic?

Op you can't take a school to an industrial tribunal. Industrial tribunals are now employment tribunals and are for employees not for parents.
These parents have withdrawn their child from school that's all.

I think its interesting how msm cover trans issues. This story was all over the TV yesterday, it even made BBC news. But I didn't see anything about rapist MTT being moved to women's prisons on the news or discussion shows.

Most msm loved the story about the school boys who wore skirts as a protest at not being allowed to wear shorts. Most said that its sexist not to let boys wear anything they like. But the same media think it is outrageous that a child doesn't see a girl when a boy wears a dress.

Bob
I'm highly suspicious of the way the MSM is covering this. The first test case covered by the media happened to come from a dopey pair of Christians? Quite fortunate, wouldn't you think?

I saw yesterday's interview (agree parents came across badly and also irritated when Philip Schofield brought up their religion). They've just had a follow up with the lady heading up Mermaid and the mother of a 'trans' child. Way more sympathetic and happy clappy.

BigDeskBob

Regarding sex and relationship programmes they start in primary school, because some girls do start their periods then. Girls and boys are told about their bodily changes separately and then brought together to discuss these changes about to take place. Starts in Year 5 and Year Six. However, some schools also talk about relationships very early, eg consent and bodily autonomy and space. All done in a way that is child language appropriate. A six year old is in Year One/Two. To leap from a child appropriate talk to one about transitioning is really a leap too far in my opinion.

Parents do have the right to remove their child from these sex and relationship talks. I'm wondering if it's going to become mandatory following the equality act currently pending (suspect not).

Happy clappy suggests to me a certain religious type that believes all without questioning (for fear of censure).

Those needing the most help here are the children. Once again, in the open, children are being abused and this abuse is encouraged by MSM. It has echoes of Savile, if I'm honest.

Elendon I had forgotten about the religious implications of happy clappy (am not religious) but yes, it was as you suggested. Very much a 'isn't it great what you're doing' etc etc and no questioning as to what happens down the line. There was a very relaxed, happy vibe throughout and as a viewer we were left feeling positive about the discussion (although not me!)

Because it's patent bollocks. A school should be calling child protection if the parents of a six year old come in and tell them that they want their child to be called Jenny and use the girl's toilets on days he's wearing a dress but be Michael if he's wearing shorts, not support and endorse this level of lunacy.

I agree with this^

Because it's patent bollocks. A school should be calling child protection if the parents of a six year old come in and tell them that they want their child to be called Jenny and use the girl's toilets on days he's wearing a dress but be Michael if he's wearing shorts, not support and endorse this level of lunacy.

I agree with this too. However to add; so subtle is this lunacy that to add it to a child protection issue is to be deemed transphobic within a school setting. It would take a strong head teacher to support you.

I saw the interview yesterday. While the parents came across a little muddled themselves, I thought Phil's interviewing style was awful. Completely ignored the sensible parts of the Dad's argument and was clearly trying to paint them as bigots and everyone else as amazing liberal minded people. The fact that some days the child in question presents as male and on other days female was glossed over and the dad saying he thought 6 was a bit too young to know for sure was not acknowledged at all.

Phil then started implying it was the same as discrimination for gay people a few years ago and that really annoyed me because in fairness to the dad, he was just saying that he thought primary age children are too young for all of this and I think he is right on that point. If kids were just allowed to be kids without grown up themes being imposed upon them at such a young age, it would be much better all round I think. There was a girl in my class at school 25 years ago who wore trousers (only girl who did) and wanted to be a boy and no one made a big deal out of it, it wasn't a 'thing' and there was no confusion. She is now in her 30's and isn't transgender.

Elendon re:sex education. What I mean is, do transgirls sit with the girls and learn about periods and female body changes? Or with the other boys? Or do they not take the class because its too awkward for everyone?

Well who knows? Obviously the trans child will never physically experience what those who keep their gender based on their biological sex physically experience.

However, they do get the sex talk about what those of the opposite sex to them will experience during puberty. It's biology really.

Personally, I preferred to read Encyclopaedia Britannia when I was young. (No porn there).

In New Zealand, a 16-year old boy enrolled in a girls' college and won the right to use the female toilets. www.stuff.co.nz/national/81590796/marlborough-girls-college-transgender-student-stefani-muollogray-to-use-girls-bathroom

There have been cases like that in the UK as well. But I think there's a big difference between arguing for use of female toilets in a day school and sharing accommodation in a boarding school. Clearly there are issues even around toilets in a day school, but as long as the toilet accommodation provides appropriate levels of privacy, there is no absolute reason why they can't be used by both sexes.

A boarding environment is a much closer to a prison in terms of the level of enforced contact - you are sleeping, undressing, washing in close proximity to other people with minimal privacy. I think as soon as some deluded parent tries to argue for their trans child to access opposite-sex facilities in that kind of closed, long-term environment where other parents are paying significant amounts of money and expect to have their concerns taken seriously, all hell will break loose.

re:sex education. What I mean is, do transgirls sit with the girls and learn about periods and female body changes? Or with the other boys? Or do they not take the class because its too awkward for everyone?

The way things are going, it would be no surprise to find they nix the stuff about biological processes because its triggering for the trans kids and focus on relationships, consent etc. I vaguely recall someone posting a link to sex ed materials for lesbian girls with advice on giving blow jobs - or perhaps the MN trans threads have finally melted my brain.

2014newme - probably did get that wrong. The parents mentioned some sort of tribunal as opposed to them suing the school as reported by some.

The school said it had policies to tackle transphobic behaviour, which included an inability to believe a transgender person was a “real” female or male; refusing to use the person’s adopted name, or using “gender inappropriate pronouns”; and feelings of discomfort and an inability to trust or connect with someone based on their transgender status.

Thought there would be more to it than a boy wearing a dress.

This morning, when I was told it was about a dress I said the parents were dick-ish

Now I have read more about it all, I think I am on the side of the parents.

Schools should in no way be enforcing shit like this. We should not be teaching our children that what they can see with their own eyes is actually false. Basically, gaslighting kids ffs.

But of fucking course a child would be distressed by adults telling him that if you put a dress on a boy, that boy becomes a girl. I mean, think about it. That's like telling a child that they might turn into a mouse if they eat too much cheese. That sort of thing can really scare small children.

Well bloody said. And the mouse analogy is spot on too.

Genuinely cannot believe schools are peddling this rubbish.

There are ways to get the kids to be more inclusive of trans students without outright lying to kids and punishing them for telling the truth...

I would bet the school was also letting this boy use the girls facilities. Not THAT much of an issue at 6 years old...but it will be later on in life when this kid is a teenager.

As if clothing defines your gender/ sex, it's 's totally ridiculous and terrifying. Does this mean that all kilt wearing Scottish males are really women now? I hope this harmful ideology doesn't make it to DDs school. If anyone asks me what defines gender I'd say gender is a socially constructed concept of how biological males and biological females should behave which I utterly reject. My daughters are girls because they have two X chromosomes in every cell in their body. This affects their biology, anatomy, and aspects of their growth but only really causes a significant difference from biological males at puberty and beyond.

At least at Dds primary school they all use the same toilets. I don't see this as an issue at this age (though it definitely is later on).