Why are feminists so aggressive?

[BertrandRussell]

This, or something like it, it always being asked. People say that the FWR board on here is scary and hounds out people whose faces don't fit. That women are always being told they can't be feminists if.......And so on. And so on.

In my experiences, you are much more likely to get an aggressive response if you express a feminist point of view than the other way round. Is it just me? Or am I missing something?

There have been plenty of interesting feminists threads recently, where everyone seems to be holding their own- but the same old accusations keep coming up.

YY Rufus

I always laugh seeing posts on AIBU saying that FWR is too mean.

And BeMoreMagdalen has a very good point [nods sagely]

This post used to be longer but it was far too sarcastic, even for me.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit but the highest form of intelligence

Though if Mr Wilde was correct then it was probably just nasty

No the deleted post was barely anything at all, just pithy and anti women, but it was by someone posting for the first time and they’ve succeeded in getting this thread going again. So probably best to let my post be the last one.

Look what I was trying to say, and I thought it was a current thread not a zombie is that I am in agreement with about 90% of what gets said on this board.

However having once posted in disagreement to regular posters (for whom I had developed a kind of affectionate respect whilst lurking) my eyes were opened as why people might have a more negative perception. And how not speaking up might come more from a point of exhaustion than agreement.

It has also made me more cautious (a good thing) about believing what I read on the internet. At a certain point in the discussion I was ridiculed for my ignorance about the role of the court appointed solicitor in the court of protection then discovered from reading the appeal judges notes later on that I had been correct.

Obviously I am not changing my mind about women's rights because of any of this.

I would just say that it's worth bearing in mind that not all discussions need to be adversarial, some times people who disagree with you may have valid points and not everyone that consistently challenges your view point is acting in bad faith.

Leaving personal experience aside, when women read about feminism and come across the quite terrible way that some men behave towards them, aggression is an entirely rational reaction. In fact, if you're not raging, you're not getting it.

I have a reasonable vocabulary, but am regularly frustrated by a dearth of words to describe the same things, disgust, abhorrence, shock, etc.

Dancing on Magdalen Berns' grave for instance. There aren't enough words to convey one's reaction. Impotence and frustration is expressed through anger. It's entirely normal.

Frankly, the women of FWR show extraordinary restraint, given why they are even here.

What Grapefruits just said.

I would just say that it's worth bearing in mind that not all discussions need to be adversarial, some times people who disagree with you may have valid points and not everyone that consistently challenges your view point is acting in bad faith.

Not all discussions on here are adversarial. And sometimes there may be a harsh post or two among mostly reasonable discussion ... FWR is not a hive mind.

Though there's often limited patience when someone posts - maybe innocently, maybe not, it's hard to tell - on some point which has been done to death.

Everyone, no exceptions and including me, gets their arse handed to them at some point on FWR.

I rather think this is a good thing.

Mine was on a dr who thread

Ive also fucked up a few times and the regulars on here are very forgiving

Unlike aibu where I’d have to name change out of embarrassment

If i was the op of the current fish finger thread I’d have name changed and be slagging myself off as a cover!

For an example of aggressiveness, just look at the Sam Smith pronoun thread. The amount of abuse being hurled at him is unreal.

He's not even saying he identifies as a woman or wants to be called she, just that he identifies as neither.

Oh FFS. "Abuse" gets hurled at every celebrity who does or says anything on every bloody forum and BTL comment section in the land. Nothing to do with feminism. It's what keeps the gossip industry grinding on.

I think the issue many people have from my observations is that, despite feminists professing to understand NAMALT, many still bash men in general for murdering women when literally 99.9% of men don't.

It's a great deal more than 99.9% of men who are sexist, intimidating, and treat women as lesser than.

20% of women will suffer from a rape or sexual assault in their lives. It's not one man doing this.

And rape and sexual assault is a woefully low bar.

The sexist behaviour of men is everywhere.

Of all the things I am become bone tired of over my rather long life it is this one, of puzzling over why women persist in acting like people, that is on my last nerve.

___
I’ve heard women (and men) day this before and it puzzles me. It parses as, “I thought I was a feminist, but I think feminists were mean to me, so I’ve gone off the whole idea of rights and opportunities for women”.

Well, I'm not sure who resurrected this thread or why but the above two comments from Creepster and DancelikeEmma... about sum up my feelings on the matter.

I do often wonder if adversarial styles of debating or discussing a topic play into the hands of a more masculine dominated world.

I think an inquisitorial style has more value if truth and accuracy are the objectives. We all go into discussions with our own biases, and all too often the goal is to go up to bat for what we think. This is often done at the expense of the potential to learn something new.

Another day, another innocent pill-popping bodybuilder murdered by feminists.

"Sex Game Gone Wrong," apparently.

I do often wonder if adversarial styles of debating or discussing a topic play into the hands of a more masculine dominated world.

This. Mumsnet could be a brilliant recruiting ground for new feminists: a primarily female space with lots of participants, many of them new mothers and thus encountering for the first time the change in freedom and status that brings to women. Instead many clearly over the years have ended up feeling pushed away, to judge from the many AIBU threads on the subject. This strikes me as counter-productive, and the opposite of what most feminists posting here would actually want to happen. Worth thinking about?

Still, things have improved a lot since the trans issue brought in a big influx of new voices. I haven't seen the "go back to the Daily Fail" taunt for a long time (used to be fairly common), for example. And Bunbury is a great replacement for the off-putting cake recipe discussions that used to look so cliqueish.

Mumsnet sarcasm is just as bad as AWA/TRA/MRA rape and death threats?!

Ah, no. I believe I said the fact that you don't see death threats here is a pretty low bar for saying it's ok.

And TBF it tends to be the same posters here every time who feel quite ok being aggressive and unkind to people, assuming the worst about their intentions, mocking them for being stupid. Very often this is to other women, which to me says a lot about the real nature of their "feminism". It's not about listening or respecting women.

This crap about telling women they have to be nice because they are women, that is bs. But if you claim to be a feminist and are dismissive of other women because you don't like what they say, not even making any effort to engage with them, you are really just being a bully.

It's a message board, if you are "too tired" then don't respond, no one has to say anything or respond to any message or post if they don't feel like it. No one is forcing some poor tired feminist to type out a message if they don't feel like talking about some issue another time.

I'm fairly tired, but I am quite happy to spend two minutes writing a sentence to you Goosefoot along the lines of "When the certificate making you the judge of how other women 'feminist' properly comes through, post a screenshot, because other than tell women to be more accommodating, I've not been overwhelmed by your campaigning for women's rights on here."

It's quite a long sentence, admittedly, and it is fairly snarky, so you probably won't approve. I'll live.

Is Sam Smith on MN? If not it's not actually possible to hurl abuse at him here. Unless you're emailing him links to the thread, and why would you do that?

This. Mumsnet could be a brilliant recruiting ground for new feminists: a primarily female space with lots of participants, many of them new mothers and thus encountering for the first time the change in freedom and status that brings to women. Instead many clearly over the years have ended up feeling pushed away, to judge from the many AIBU threads on the subject. This strikes me as counter-productive, and the opposite of what most feminists posting here would actually want to happen. Worth thinking about?

OK, so why do you post here? Why do all of you post here? Why are you posting in this thread? I presume it is because you have something to say and you want people to read it. At some point we all decided to join in, perhaps with trepidation but we joined in nonetheless. When I first started coming to FWR it was intimidating - it was years ago and trust me it was far more intimidating than it is now, much more theory. I read and eventually joined in because I wanted to be part of the conversation and I had something of my own to say. So I'm going to say this, knowing that it will be thought of aas aggressive by some and because it is written I can't say it with a smile and encouraging tone but honest to God women toughen the freak up. On forums every once in a while you take a bit of a verbal beating if you have opinions - especially when you are female. So take it, listen and if you don't agree that's fine but keep on being part of the conversation. All this 'Oh people mock, they use sarcasm, they told me to go and read something ...' honestly let that shit go. If you want to be a feminist and write on here then do it - you shouldn't be letting other people put you off it is defeatist and frankly a bit of an excuse.

I say all this in friendliness to the women out there wanting to speak here, just do it but if you have an opinion which isn't popular, people will respond and respond vigorously. Don't get bogged down by the idea that people haven't been kind enough to you, the women didn't speak nicely etc etc ... because women have been tone policed and had their behaviour checked enough in this world and we shouldn't be doing it to each other. The women here should be able to respond as themselves. And lets face it a lot of us are sarcastic and a bit blunt - that isn't NASTY but it is who some people are and it shouldn't have to be reined in. By all means complain if you are called names, or people are sending you nasty messages - that isn't right but I have to say I haven't seen that here (not that I read every single word). But really toughen up wimms - and join in anyway.

So much seconded.

I think @goosefoot makes some good points. I am not saying women should "be more kind" because how many times has that been used to shut down womens voices but as someone who is really quite new to this side of feminism it is off putting to get aggressive responses. I'm not abandoning my principles because someone was rude or snarky on the internet but it has put me off getting more involved and I know of other women who have felt pushed away for asking questons. I think a very small group use the "screw kind" as an excuse to bully. That's not the same as straight talking or just being blunt which I can respect.

I've been thinking about this some more, and I've realised the thing that is most offputting for me is when someone's post is twisted and misrepresented by another poster, so that a strawman version can then be "rebutted" and sneered at. This tactic is unfair and disrespectful, because it puts the other person on the back foot, putting them in an undeserved bad light, and forcing them to argue against the misrepresentations of what they've said, rather than allowing them space for their genuine argument. There are numerous examples of this on the Middle Ground thread, for example.

So the biggest problem, IMO, isn't people not being "nice" or being sarcastic or arguing too "robustly". Rather, it's not having enough respect for other women to actually read what they've said properly, and then refrain from misrepresenting it. Because when it comes down to it, if there is too much of that kind of thing going on, a lot of people will just write a forum off as being too difficult and annoying to participate in, regardless of whether they feel they have something to say.

the thing that is most offputting for me is when someone's post is twisted and misrepresented by another poster, so that a strawman version can then be "rebutted" and sneered at.

To be fair, this is something that happens all over Mumsnet, and across all subjects.