Why are feminists so aggressive?

[BertrandRussell]

This, or something like it, it always being asked. People say that the FWR board on here is scary and hounds out people whose faces don't fit. That women are always being told they can't be feminists if.......And so on. And so on.

In my experiences, you are much more likely to get an aggressive response if you express a feminist point of view than the other way round. Is it just me? Or am I missing something?

There have been plenty of interesting feminists threads recently, where everyone seems to be holding their own- but the same old accusations keep coming up.

Re: that Telegraph article was nothing but nonsensical sophistry. It juxtaposed two "facts" 1. Sahd's are dying earlier 2. More women are taking on the primary breadwinner role. However it failed to establish anything in the way of causation. Correlation does not prove causation. Fact is that article is specifically designed to stir the pot and increase resentment between men and women. To do that without a cogent argument is really shoddy journalism (and I am a conservative so I often like the telegraph).

Personally I a lot of the humor on that thread didn't land for me, although one comment where a woman insinuated that it was all part of her grand plan to off her dh, and the police wouldn't be able to touch her! That one did raise a wry smile, but my god if a joke doesn't land for me I don't laugh and move on.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid

Did you read the article that thread was referring to?

It was a shallow, superficial, one-sided look at why men who are not the breadwinner suffer stress. It was thought that losing the position of power stressed them out.

Something, which no feminist is going to agree with. Or if they do, it's because of gender stereotyping, ...which they disagree with.

There was no analysis of toxic masculinity and how it damages both men and women, and how, in fact, feminists are trying to combat it.

It was a one-sided piece that seemed to blame women for wanting to take their place in the power structure, with no solution offered.

The comment

"But from the woman's point of view, at least their misogynist husband is going to die earlier"

was in the context of the mind set of the author of the article.

As Datun said, horrid, it's one post on one thread

I'm not trawling through fwr to find more examples for you. I had a quick look at one thread with less than 50 posts. I suspect that's not the only unpleasant joke on here but I could be wrong.

When you're faced with a report of another woman being mutilated by a man, commenting that man with poor health might die young seems mild

Why should sahds get it in the neck because other men do appalling things to women?

Exactly Derval, One poster thought that offing her husband now with a frying pan to the head, would save a lot of incremental stress over decades.

No one takes it seriously. It's a light-hearted poke. But the philosophy behind that poke is very serious. Sometimes it's a relief to send it up, to be honest.

Why should sahds get it in the neck because other men do appalling things to women?

Stay at home dads weren't getting in the neck! Feminists love stay-at-home dads.

Blaming women for men getting stressed out because they don't the power they think they should have, was getting it in the neck.

'Why should sahds get it in the neck because other men do appalling things to women?'

No one was getting it in the neck. It was a flippant comment on a thread, about nobody in particular in response to a ridiculous article that implied that women were causing men to die young by having the audacity to earn more.

I can't be arsed anymore.

I've answered the question. I personally think fwr is seen as aggressive because it's a bit of a clique that talks only to its self.

Others come on, misinterpret posts and come away thinking the worst.

You point out this could be an issue some take it on board (yetanothers irony flag sounds good).
But others believe that they can say what they like about whoever because a lot of women are treated appallingly.

Like I said, can't be bothered anymore. Honestly I started the day thinking "maybe I should look at fwr more often" but I actually can't be arsed.
Any differing opinion has to be backed up by shit loads of reasearch and proof and I just don't have the time or the interest.

Look I am a stay at home (single) father, and I wasn't personally offended at all. So for all the ever so kind women rushing to the defense of men against the mean feminists, thanks but if I had felt a genuine hostility here I'd a) defend myself or b) bugger off elsewhere.

So if all the fwr regulars are really that bad how come I haven't felt particularly unwelcome here?

Yes I can say whatever I like horrid, I'm not going to censor myself because some people don't understand some jokes. You are also welcome to post as much as you like, start your own threads etc.

'Any differing opinion has to be backed up by shit loads of reasearch and proof and I just don't have the time or the interest.' I can't really understand the issue here. If someone comes on and says women commit just as much sexual crime as men, for example, you can be damn sure people will expect research and proof. What's wrong with that? When discussing issues that affect women's lives, it's necessary to back what you're saying up, you can't just come on and state a completely unsubstantiated fact about the world and expect everyone to just believe you. What would be the point of that???

Any differing opinion has to be backed up by shit loads of reasearch and proof and I just don't have the time or the interest.

Well yes, that is one of the feminist bug bears. Not because feminists can't have an opinion without backup, but because they are constantly being asked to back up their assertions. With evidence, statistics, studies and science.

People are forever telling feminists they're wrong, and 'citation please'. It goes hand-in-hand. You have to know what you're talking about in order to counteract criticism.

I will happily discuss any robustly defended point. I will not entertain random unsubstantiated assertions - that's a total waste of my time.

Agreed Datun, and even when feminists do have research and evidence and proof there will still be people suggesting, implying, obliquely referencing the idea that it's not accurate (they'll rarely state it outright as they can't back that up). It's so fucking annoying.

When you feel like you have been through a war and are still battling for your freedoms you often will end up with a very black sense of humour or become a bit abrupt. That's fine with me.

I keep having random men on social media expecting me to bend over backwards to be nice to them to prove feminists aren't a bunch of witches. I'm tired of it. It's a shame we get it here too, would be nice just to discuss something robustly without constantly having threads derailed because feminists are meanies.

Feminists and this board is held to a higher standard than anything else on Mumsnet it's true.

Oh, I thought Horrid was talking about feminists using evidence to back up their arguments, not asking other people to do that.

But yes, of course, it's essential.

I don't know any debate that doesn't use evidence?

Anyone can have an opinion, but as soon as that opinion is questioned, you have to back it up. You can't just say because I think so. Well you can, but it would have to be on something entirely subjective. Like your favourite colour.

I will happily discuss any robustly defended point. I will not entertain random unsubstantiated assertions - that's a total waste of my time

Final post and then I really am done.

I've regularly said that this is my opinion, my opinion is not fact. I basically said this.

"I think some posts aren't all that clear on fwr. And none regulars can misinterpret this.
Here are two examples from one thread"

well that was clearly a joke

"Was it? It wasn't a jokey thread and on virtually every other thread on mn people use to indicate when they are joking"

That's it. I'm not saying my opinion is fact. It's an opinion and I have one example of an unpleasant joke.

Like I said I could research fwr threads and link to other similar posts. Maybe I would find them maybe not. But like I said I don't have time (or the interest).

The absolute irony on this is that a few times I've been told by fwr regulars that people often us humour to hide misogyny. "Oh it was just a joke, you shouldn't be so sensitive"
Now I'm sure huge numbers of people would read that post and not find it problematic at all. I'm just saying maybe some do and it wouldn't hurt to be a little clearer.

If I had a health thread, and someone came along and said aloe Vera could solve my problem, I'd ask where that info had come from. Complaining about "citation please" is just another example of feminists being held more accountable for the same actions.

Oh right, you're talking about the opinion that what was said could be misinterpreted. Yes, it could. Anything could be misinterpreted.

I've responded to your opinion on that to say that I'm not going to censor what I say and that you're quite welcome to post here in whatever way you like.

I don't see what else can be said on the matter.

I've responded to your opinion on that to say that I'm not going to censor what I say

Didn't say you had to censor anything just add a to show you are joking / being ironic.

god im shit at flouncing, properly going now

Nope, not going to do that either sorry. I'm just going to post normally and if people have an issue with what I say they can ask me about it. Telling others how to post comes across as a bit odd to me (just an opinion [opinion face])

Horrid

I honestly don't understand how you could pick on one
interpretation of a post which was clearly not meant to be serious (whether you think it was bad taste or not is a different matter, it evidently was not serious), extrapolate that from the hundreds of other threads on here for women, by women and about women, and decide that feminism here holds no interest and is a waste of your time.

Snort (not ironic).

I find it odd that a certain group of posters are seen as being gatekeepers of some sort on the feminism board - I think by many I'm seen as being part of that group. And yet I can't name anybody else in the group - I never remember user names and I don't know who anybody is. This group is then seen as somehow controlling the whole place. What's actually happening, usually, is that we agree on a coherent argument that has been refined over the last 50 years, often by exceptional women such as Andrea Dworkin. These aren't ideas that we've just dreamed up, they've been discussed, tested, argued over and refined over many many years. If you're not familiar with them I think it can seem that everyone is just randomly agreeing.

^ I can't keep up with all the name changes. I find that sad in a way. I don't think I'm in any inner sanctum because I'm not a rad fem and often take a pernicity critical line but I don't feel excluded either.

I don't get the "gatekeeper" thing either.There are loads of opinions on FWR-feminist, non feminist and anti feminist.

These aren't ideas that we've just dreamed up, they've been discussed, tested, argued over and refined over many many years. If you're not familiar with them I think it can seem that everyone is just randomly agreeing.

I think this is probably right.

And I still think that more insults and general disagreeableness is thrown at feminists than the other way round.......