Why are feminists so aggressive?

[BertrandRussell]

This, or something like it, it always being asked. People say that the FWR board on here is scary and hounds out people whose faces don't fit. That women are always being told they can't be feminists if.......And so on. And so on.

In my experiences, you are much more likely to get an aggressive response if you express a feminist point of view than the other way round. Is it just me? Or am I missing something?

There have been plenty of interesting feminists threads recently, where everyone seems to be holding their own- but the same old accusations keep coming up.

But that the whole of mn need to get on board with the joke and alter their sense of humour accordingly.

I know the opening post asked the question. So I know this was in answer to it. But I don't think anyone should change their sense of humour. A sense of humour is something personal, subjective and not something you can easily change. Something that is funny suffers massively from over explanation.

But that's just me.

Today 12:50 YetAnotherSpartacus

The Bergdorf thread is a derailed dog's breakfast ...

Lol. But you see, I wouldn't know that. I was fascinated to watch it unfold.

Something that is funny suffers massively from over explanation

I'm just suggesting adding a to indictate you are taking the piss might help. doesn't explain anything to anyone.

Page 8 is just one example of people saying we are too academic btw. I'm sure I read this earlier in the thread as well.

Bergdorf drove me mad - there were some good points made but also too many people going off on different tangents.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid

I totally understand what you're saying. But I have a slight reluctance, to add . Unless I've got a pretty good idea that what I've said could be misinterpreted.

I have a slight aversion to emoticons of any kind, and also the use of 'lol'. I do employ it, sometimes, because nothing else will do. 'Haha' can come across as sarcastic all by itself!

And for what it's worth, most of the time I re-read my post before I press send, to make sure I've said exactly what I think. That it's not open to misinterpretation.

Occasionally, someone will ask me to clarify, and I realise, to my chagrin, that I have said something ambiguous. So a quick I'm sorry, that's not what I meant, generally does the trick.

I apologise for my part in going off on a tangent there - I'm a bit of a nightmare at that (and I realise it frequently looks like merailing) and do my best not to, but my train of thought goes like a runaway train sometimes, and it is only looking at it later that I think wtf are you on about

Fwiw, I'm a relatively regular poster here who isn't highly educated in feminist theory. I don't find that a reason not to post and rarely feel stupid when other people know more than me. I'm sure I know more than them on other subjects, that isn't offensive ffs.

And I agree with whoever it was upthread who suggested that there is a mismatch where regular posters who 'know' each other, know what is meant by a post (be it a joke or ironic or whatever) and less frequent posters who read and take it at face value, and get offended (especially those who take class analysis as a personal insult)

YetAnotherSpartacus

Yes, it was one of those threads where I felt I had a couple of plates spinning at the same time, and if I kept my eye on one, the other would fall.

Because I was interested in the tangent. Although I realised it was a tangent.

Anyway, I think the overall feeling is that feminists can get snarky.

Feminists will either not care, not agree, think they have a reason for it, or think gosh, let's try and be a bit more friendly.

Either way, they're not all going to think the same.
(not ironic)

Occasionally, someone will ask me to clarify, and I realise, to my chagrin, that I have said something ambiguous

That doesn't work with lurkers. Although I do know what you mean, I have a hatred of lol too.

Thing is there is a problem with how fwr is perceived. So it can't just be the odd misinterpretated joke but lots of them.

I agree with yetanother irony flag would be useful. Not for the regulars but for everybody else.

Thing is there is a problem with how fwr is perceived. So it can't just be the odd misinterpretated joke but lots of them.

I'm fairly careful what I say. But there are some things about which I have a strong opinion. Which I will back up. If someone disagrees, after a certain discourse, I will just say, well then we disagree. You can't make someone believe what you believe. You can only try and put forward your argument. Without personal attacks.

Nonetheless, I have wandered onto other parts of mumsnet, and been instantly criticised just for showing up! Because of my feminist views. Which are fairly mainstream, to be honest.

I once stayed up until the early hours, cutting and pasting various things to demonstrate my argument. Painstakingly, uber politely. The person in question conceded and agreed. Claiming they hadn't known all that, and now they did. (It was a very specific point).

The very next time we were on the same thread, that very same person took exception to the issue we had addressed. Which she had agreed with, at the time.

So, I do think, that some of the feminists on here are instantly categorised, based on their feminist views, and based on that alone.

^ Even with my fairly obvious username, I don't think I have experienced that elsewhere on MN, to be honest. Isn't that interesting? I have been on ABIU on trans threads and seen comments about how the FWR crowd are turning up etc., but that's as far as it goes.

There's no escaping the fact that if you want to discuss feminism then you have to have some level of grasp of what it's all about. I admit that I get frustrated when I'm trying to discuss something and it's clear that some posters aren't really getting the point - I can't be bothered to explain what I see to be more basic ideas over and over again. I think that can make some people feel excluded and I understand that. However, I don't think it's my duty to painstakingly educate everyone who wants to be educated - there are plenty of things out there to read. I wouldn't go on a thread about, say, the subtleties of Sharia Law and ask why Muslims don't eat pork - it is not relevant to the thread and I can't expect posters to stop and explain that point to me before going on with their own discussion.

I think that FWR is perceived badly by some because they think feminists are a bit, well embarrassing and icky.

Like the term 'The patriarchy'. I freely admit that I dislike the term and that I feel that it is not useful and in fact off-putting. But it IS essential to explain the concepts in feminism and so needs to be used sometimes. I think some women absolutely agree with those concepts but wish we would all shut up about it because they find the whole thing uncomfortable. Which I get. But I won't shut up because that never achieved anything

Also, I can't help but get a bit snippy when a poster implies things that are patently not true in order not to agree with a blatantly obvious point I'm making. For example, one poster implied that stating that the suffragettes secured the vote for women was 'simplifying the situation.' When I asked him/her to clarify what was meant by that, they obfuscated some more. I can't be doing with that sort of nonsense.

And of course I get totally fucked off with the whole 'feminists are man haters' utter bullshit. On any given thread about male behaviour you will see poster after poster going on about how 'that's what men are like' and implying that men can't control themselves etc etc - ie stating that men are some sort of subhuman incompetent species who can't be trust. It will be feminists who say that men are civilised human beings who are perfectly capable of controlling themselves and being competent parents and partners. What's more 'man-hating' than stating that men are basically hopeless????

can't be trusted

Yy sparrow

And of course I get totally fucked off with the whole 'feminists are man haters' utter bullshit

It is bullshit. But a problem could be that people read posts like this about sahds and don't see them as a joke.

But from the woman's point of view, at least their misogynist husband is going to die earlier

If a person read that seriously you can see how they might come away with the impression there's a few man haters on fwr.

I have to admit I'd am very surprised that anybody would read that as being anything other than a joke horrid. And if the person did mean it, you could probably safely write them off as having very extreme views. For someone to honestly believe that all feminists would agree with that sentiment I think they'd have to have a very skewed idea of what feminism is - I mean, it's a completely meaningless statement anyway.

I think feminists are always going to be attacked and held to an impossibly high standard, because their message is so unwelcome.

You need a very thick skin and I'm enormously grateful to the women brave enough to speak out.

YetAnotherSpartacus

To be fair, it doesn't happen that often, but it does happen. My point is that it's not what we say, it's the fact that we say it.

Because most of what feminists say is completely verifiable. Which feeds into what TheSparrowhawk said.

If feminists talk about male sexual violence, for instance, you will always get people, quite genuinely saying it's not just men, it's not all men, etc. Until you point out that it is 98% men.

Things like oppression, wage gap, violence, male behaviour, entitlement, etc, are all gimmees on FWR, but if you're not familiar with all that, it can look like man bashing.

The other bastion of denial is the term 'point-scoring' - it's generally used by men more than women IME, and it's used when the woman brings up a point that the man can't possibly disagree with without looking like a misogynistic monster. A straightforward example is when a man says that women have nothing to worry about and I reply that I worry about being one of the 85,000 women raped in the UK every year. Suddenly they're stumped because yes it is awful that so many thousands of women are raped every year and they can't deny it. But instead of saying yes it's awful and it is a terrible worry they just accuse me of 'point scoring' because I'm only supposed to stick to nice easy topics like wages and not refer to icky things like sexual violence that are undeniably shit.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid

But from the woman's point of view, at least their misogynist husband is going to die earlier

"If a person read that seriously you can see how they might come away with the impression there's a few man haters on fwr."

Yes, of course. If they're only going to read that one paragraph, then they can be forgiven for thinking feminists are sexist. But if I read something on a thread that shocked me, I'd keep going, to find out what was going on.

You really can't do anything about people who read one paragraph (or even just one thread) and judge an entire board on that alone.

I have to admit I'd am very surprised that anybody would read that as being anything other than a joke horrid

I know but it is a bit vicious. But if a man wrote on dads net that there's an article about high earning women. And another man wrote "good at least those bitches will be dead sooner"
I would struggle to see the humour in it.

It's possible others feel the same way about the quip regarding sahds dying earlier.

That's just one example looking at one small thread. I could be wrong on this. But fwr isn't seen as a welcoming place quite a number of posters maybe this is one of the reasons?

As Datun said, horrid, it's one post on one thread. We're not all collectively responsible for what each individual writes. I wouldn't write something like that personally but I can see why that person did and I understand the sentiment behind it. It is a bit vicious yes but really in the face of what women have to suck up on a continual basis a slightly vicious comment on a thread is small beans. When you're faced with a report of another woman being mutilated by a man, commenting that man with poor health might die young seems mild.

I think feminists are always going to be attacked and held to an impossibly high standard, because their message is so unwelcome

This ^