Munroe Bergdorf sacked by l'oreal

[Biddlyboo]

Has anyone seen this news story today? The irony that a mtt transgender goes off on one about race when the exact same thing can be said about men's privilege and society standing on the backs of women...
Sorry, just made me a bit
www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/41127404/loreal-sacks-first-transgender-model-munroe-bergdorf
Can't do clicky link!

"Western wealth has been and continues to be acquired through exploitation and oppression of the developing nations."

Not all white people are from countries that are western or wealthy.

That is the problem with assuming things about "ALL" people of any category, like this Munroe person has done.

The very vast majority of white Caucasian people have ancestry in Europe. And white people living in countries that profited from slavery do tend to experience white privilege whatever their ancestry.

If I a white American go for a job and my typical European sounding name goes against an equal (or possibly better) Cv of a black woman with a name seen as black... I'm going to be seen as a better candidate. I am profiting from a racist heritage. My biological family were abolitionists doesn't mean I'm not profiting from white supremacy.

Maybe she's talking about white people in the USA - rather than white people everywhere in the whole wide world?

I thought she was British and the UK definitely profited off slave labour.

Yes I largely agree with all the points here.
If someone here wrote "i dont have the energy to talk about the sexual violence of men any more. Yes ALL Men" we would be crucified. I've never seen a statement even close to this on mumsnet.

Should she have been sacked? Hard to say. But if I made the above statement about men in a work context, representing my company internationally, I think it wouldn't be a surprise if they did sack me.

However there is a lot of truth in what she was saying underneath that. Western society is structurally racist in a similar way to being structurally sexist. I think though (controversial) that's human society as a whole. I spent time in Africa and there was a definite hierarchy there too. The caste system exists in India. Many countries still have servants in many middle class houses. Structural oppression based on power dynamics seems to be fundamental to human society.

I thing Bergdorfs trans status is relevant because she talks about violence, not meaning actual physical violence for the most part. Oppression is not always violence. But hyperbole is part of transactivism (i heard someone on the radio the other day saying 50% of trans people had committed suicide ). She may be so used to that language she hasn't even really thought about what she said.

I do also totally agree with scottish. Pisses me right off that Jonny Depp is still advertising Dior. It's outrageous

Very good post @quentinsummers

Munroe has a massive point about racism. It's uncomfortable to hear - but yes white people as a class ARE racist

I'm happy to admit this. I'm also happy to say that I accept he meant systemic racism. What the OP said, though, was The irony that a mtt transgender goes off on one about race when the exact same thing can be said about men's privilege and society standing on the backs of women and it is this point that has got lost in this thread.

Of course the uk as a country did profit off slave labour, and of course racism exists now and white people as a class benefit from it. I want to make it clear that I agree with that before massively putting my foot in my mouth and sounding scarily similar to a great big racist.

However. Certain classes of white people and those in certain areas surely cannot be held responsible for slavery in the way that those in America and some in the UK can be? Do people really think that those in areas where men died down mines every day are just as responsible now as rich slave owners? Some areas of the uk have been conquered and repressed continually for thousands of years, probably by the same people whose decendants then decided black slavery was a good idea.

And that's without cotes point that there are countries away from Western Europe.

yetanother

I'm struggling to see the difference between a black transwoman talking about racism (even though they have had male privilege) and a white woman talking about sexism (when they have had white privilege).

If it's ironic for a black transwoman to discuss racism - as they have benefitted from male privilege, then surely it's ironic for a white woman to discuss sexism - even though they've benefitted from white privilege?

The point has been made that MTT's set aside their privilege. I'd be interested to know how someone just sets their privilege aside.

Superficial change can be brought about by social pressure, but when we move away from that influence we return to our comfortable position.

surely it's ironic for a white woman to discuss sexism - even though they've benefitted from white privilege?

A lot of people, including plenty of white men, do think that white women shouldn't discuss sexism unless they first acknowledge their privilege. That is the basis of much modern "intersectional" feminism. And why it generally degenerates into the "oppression Olympics".

I'd be interested to know how someone just sets their privilege aside.

Me too.

I'm happy to admit this. I'm also happy to say that I accept he meant systemic racism.

Me too.

'If it's ironic for a black transwoman to discuss racism - as they have benefitted from male privilege, then surely it's ironic for a white woman to discuss sexism - even though they've benefitted from white privilege?'

I think sometimes it is, especially when we do it in relation to an area where our privilege is unacknowledged and ongoing.

What we have here is a black MtT, who has benefitted from male privilege discussing racism in the context that (i) they are helping perpetuate sexism and (ii) in the context where white women discussing the oppression they experience as women (sexism) are consistently shut down by white and black men and many in the trans community who argue that we have 'cis privilege' and people with XY chromosomes and who were born with a penis (some still one) are women and can speak for women.

@CoteDAzur i am in interested in the country you mentioned. I could easily argue for some white people.

I agree that when I read it the comments and watched the video, I thought they meant the current structure. It can easily be said for the structure of the world and how it's divided up.

A lot of people, including plenty of white men, do think that white women shouldn't discuss sexism unless they first acknowledge their privilege. That is the basis of much modern "intersectional" feminism. And why it generally degenerates into the "oppression Olympics". I guess we learn from the best. Seeing that white suffragettes started this first when they went against black men claiming why they should be given voting rights before black men based on where they saw themselves on the hierarchy. By giving black men freedom to vote is giving them more power to make to oppress white women as group. They felt they were close to the white male than a black man. Black women didn't even cross their minds because we were non entity by default of being a black woman or Native American.

However. Certain classes of white people and those in certain areas surely cannot be held responsible for slavery in the way that those in America and some in the UK can be? Even if you are poor, living in a financially better off economy that dictates how the world works by either creating Wars or having the means to defend wars from coming to your door step is privilege.
Having free education is a privilege even though it shouldn't be. Having an economy that does not rely on aid is privilege. All the countries that where colonised lack the privilege that the colonisers have. And the colonial rulers still benefit from that system today.

The best example of those who have suffered because of slavery is Haiti. They revolted and won. (And could be argued they are the people that helped slavery to end because the whole system was crumbling). In tern, no one gives a damn about them. They are no different to a country in Africa. Probably worse because the western world looks at them like the forgotten people. The slaves who wanted freedom and got it. They were left with nothing and as people, they are expected to fend for themselves. How does that work?

I'm not arguing that the privilege doesn't exist quencher, sorry I thought I made that clear. I was saying you aren't responsible for the actions of people above you. If colonised lack the privilege of colonisers, surely this also applies to non-English countries in the Uk too?

'Can someone explain this to me: "your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of colour."

I don't get it at all.'

The notion that some people are white is a social construct. It was a construct developed (originally by the Spanish) to justify slavery and other forms of racism. Anyone who defines themselves as white and believes a common culture exists between white people owes their cultural existence to slavery.

'I'm not arguing that the privilege doesn't exist quencher, sorry I thought I made that clear. I was saying you aren't responsible for the actions of people above you. If colonised lack the privilege of colonisers, surely this also applies to non-English countries in the Uk too?'

Scotland is a colonising nation! Its wealth is built on slavery and colonisation.

Some areas of the uk have been conquered and repressed continually for thousands of years, probably by the same people whose decendants then decided black slavery was a good idea

If colonised lack the privilege of colonisers, surely this also applies to non-English countries in the Uk too?

Oh for goodness sake- if this is "the poor Scots have been colonised nonsense" stop it now. It is ridiculous

Indeed it was Sylvia BeyondLimitsAndWhatever' posts are embarrassing.

@BeyondLimitsAndWhatever is not individual benefit, That is why it's a system. With a system it encompasses everybody related to it because they benefit in some kind of trickled down way. Even black people living in Europe benefit from this compared to those in Africa, Asia etc. It does not mean that everyone in Africa is poorer than those in Europe or or western world.

"I guess we learn from the best. Seeing that white suffragettes started this first when they went against black men claiming why they should be given voting rights before black men based on where they saw themselves on the hierarchy. By giving black men freedom to vote is giving them more power to make to oppress white women as group. They felt they were close to the white male than a black man. Black women didn't even cross their minds because we were non entity by default of being a black woman or Native American. "

This is true of the US - not the UK. Bergdorf is British. In the UK, suffrage was extended to all men in 1918 but not to women until 1928 (black women in the US were given the right to vote in 1920).

Conflating the two countries' history by dint of a shared language is not helpful.

I'm Welsh.