Munroe Bergdorf sacked by l'oreal

[Biddlyboo]

Has anyone seen this news story today? The irony that a mtt transgender goes off on one about race when the exact same thing can be said about men's privilege and society standing on the backs of women...
Sorry, just made me a bit
www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/41127404/loreal-sacks-first-transgender-model-munroe-bergdorf
Can't do clicky link!

Does not make it better.

'Conflating the two countries' history by dint of a shared language is not helpful.'

Yes, this is a major issue. On the one hand, there are posters complaining about why we're talking about the US rather than Yemen. On the other hand, the situation in the UK is constantly being engulfed by American politics.

Americans have cultural dominance in the anglosphere.

@JigglyTuff what you said is true. However, intersectionality comes from America. By mentioning it on this thread as "oppressed olympics" warrants a reply for it's history. Is that wrong?

And as I said, I understand the current privilege afforded to white people. What I struggle with is "your ancestors were horrible to my ancestors"

I guess we learn from the best. Seeing that white suffragettes started this first when they went against black men claiming why they should be given voting rights before black men based on where they saw themselves on the hierarchy. By giving black men freedom to vote is giving them more power to make to oppress white women as group. They felt they were close to the white male than a black man. Black women didn't even cross their minds because we were non entity by default of being a black woman or Native American

Black men got their first. They thought they should get the vote before BOTH white and black women and women were told 'This is the Nego's hour". Black men got the right to vote in 1870. Black and White women did not get the right to vote until 1920 - FIFTY YEARS, that's half a century later. Many, many white and black women helped black men's campaign for the vote at the expense of their own issues and campaign. Very few black men repaid the favour.

Oh for goodness sake- if this is "the poor Scots have been colonised nonsense" stop it now. It is ridiculous

It's not ridiculous though when it comes to Northern Ireland. Being Catholic meant that you were a second class citizen (and the Scots contributed to this, massively).

It's not wrong, no. But given 'oppression olympics' also happens in the UK and is nearly always informed by US history, I think making sure we're talking about the history of the right country is important.

I've seen stuff on SM saying that the UK should not have a statue of Millicent Fawcett because 'white suffragettes threw black women under the bus'. That's a nonsense

Northern Ireland was colonised by the English and the Scots - the latter being deliberate because of the Plantation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people

FIFTY YEARS, that's half a century later. Many, many white and black women helped black men's campaign for the vote at the expense of their own issues and campaign. 🤔 I think you need to read on the context of that gain. It wasn't as abc as you stated here. It wasn't because they thought they deserved it first so white women helped out.

And as I said, I understand the current privilege afforded to white people. What I struggle with is "your ancestors were horrible to my ancestors" but they were.

People are still affected by it mentally. I was watching "who do you think you were this week" and cried. I also, cried when the actor found out where he is from in Africa. I understood the joke he made when he wanted to go and find the family/man that did that to his ancestors. It's not something you brush off. The worst time for a black child is discovery slavery and the magnitude of it and then having to deal with it. it can manifest in different ways. It either breaks or makes you. The way you think of the world from then on can dictate how you see yourself in the world. That's excluding all the other things that can affect people from achieving their full potential in life.

It wasn't because they thought they deserved it first so white women helped out

Sorry - but my reading of the history is that black men, by virtue of being men, definitely thought they deserved it first. They wanted the same rights and privileges as white men.

People are still affected mentally here too. I have a living family member who went to dig bodies out of Aberfan, you think we just forget?

The best example of those who have suffered because of slavery is Haiti. They revolted and won. (And could be argued they are the people that helped slavery to end because the whole system was crumbling). In tern, no one gives a damn about them. They are no different to a country in Africa. Probably worse because the western world looks at them like the forgotten people. The slaves who wanted freedom and got it. They were left with nothing and as people, they are expected to fend for themselves. How does that work?

I agree with this.

People are still affected mentally here too. I have a living family member who went to dig bodies out of Aberfan, you think we just forget? Nope! That's the whole point. Why would be people think black people would forget when it's constantly thrown in their face through racism. The ancestors may have done it but people still carry that hate through pure racism and the system that embodies it.

Western wealth has been and continues to be acquired through exploitation and oppression of the developing nations.

This.

If you're thinking that this is all about slavery, then you're massively out of touch with world events.

We, the (largely white) western world, exploit the (largely non-white) developing world.

We murder their leaders, rain bombs on their civilian men, women and children. In Iraq, for example, there have been an estimated approaching 200,000 CIVILIANS killed since we decided to invade to steal the oil. A US drone bombed a wedding procession in Yemen FFS.

We train various militias when it suits our purpose and then when it doesn't we leave them trained and armed to the teeth to wreak havoc. We engage in "nation building" after wars that amounts to parasitic asset stripping.

We manipulate poorer economies to profit our own. We buy cheap goods made by children in far away lands. We dump our rubbish in third world countries including toxic waste. We polute the oceans and rivers and air of this world with our stinking consumer greed.

We control what we can of the world the world through violence or the threat of violence.

Who gives whom more money, the developing world or the developed world, do you know? The developing world give the West MUCH more money that we give them. WE LIVE OFF THEM.
Their loan repayments to the IMF dwarf the aid sent back to them. In the UK, a third of the debts owed to us by poor countries are interest alone. We know it screws them. But we keep on taking it.

And - even then, think our "aid" is a nice thing? We OFTEN give countries "aid" in a way that actually screws their economies while - sometimes - also profiting our own.

Yet we are sitting here discussing the gender of the person who pointed this out. WTF?

I'm most definitely gender critical - but this is hyprocrisy of the highest order. Either you believe in the oppresion olympics where you work out who's most oppressed before we know if we're able to listen to them. Or - where gender is fucking irrelevant - we listen to a POC pointing out what should be obvious to us, but isn't because we're strongly encouraged not to think about it.

@justanothernameagain exactly! I agree point for point on that post.

Yet we are sitting here discussing the gender of the person who pointed this out. WTF

I agree with everything you said above but I thought it was clear we were discussing the issue because of the irony involved of a MtT (XY chromosomes, born with a penis) making this statement as they engaged in a practice that contributed to women's oppression and in the context where transactivists silence women speaking about sexism.

Who actually made your clothes, do you know?
What does your bank invest your money in?
Where does your rubbish go?
Where are your old mobile phones and computers now?
Who did our military and our allies bomb this week?
Which countries who we sold arms to are actively using those arms? Who are they murdering with them?
Which countries are facing humanitarian disasters around the world and what are you doing about it?
Which countries did the fruit and veg in your kitchen come from?
Which products in your house are based on exploitation or polute the world? What are YOU doing to not use such products in the future?
Where does your MP stand on all these things and what are they doing about it?

Can you answer all these questions? I can't, but I know they're there, and I am aware that I live in a system in which we are some of the wealthiest people on the planet BECAUSE we exploit others.

Have you ever thought about questions like this through the lens of race?

It's not a fucking coincidence we're rich and the developing world is not - and this isn't based solely on history - it's a system we're actively perpetuating right now.

THIS is why it's current, it's not history, and it's fair enough to say all white people are responsible for the violence.

What are you doing to address it, other than enjoying the fruits of the exploitation of the developing world and not having to think much about it? Unless you livein a fucking cave and don't take part in modern life at all, you are benefitting from the oppression of - largely non-white - people the world over.

I don't live in a cave, I take part in modern life. But I don't defend it, I know that it's exploitative.

Who is this 'We' you are talking about Just?

It certainly isn't me.

You can certainly conflate male privilege with slavery in all it's forms. White males are probably better at it. It's actually a good comparison to make.

Thrall is a Norse word. Enthralled is related to slavery - some slaves actually liked their lives with their Norse masters.

No one is exclusively discussing the gender of the person ffs - well maybe one.

I utterly agree with everything you say, but I think also that we could ask a series of similarly emotive questions about how men dominate women.

On that score, in the kinds of third world / Southern / developing / post-colonial countries that you mention there is a sex-based hierarchy in which women are the most oppressed - denied bodily autonomy, health care, education and where laws often allow men to rape them and beat them and sell them into sexual slavery. Just to be clear - these are men from their own societies.

"in the context where transactivists silence women speaking about sexism."

Should I not be allowed to have an opinion on sexism because I'm middle class?

Was this particular person actively silencing women when the statement was made?

No? Then can't you see how disengenious it is to not use this as an opportunity to look at the serious issues that person raisies, and instead turn it into a trans debate?

Monroe was speaking as a POC, not as a transwoman. Her gender is irrelevant.

She should be able to say whatecer she likes about racism without her gender being mentioned, it's irrelevant.

You cannot go about making sweeping statements about every single member of the white race being rascist when you have a certain image to project at work. that's if you want to keep your job.
Can you imagine how long I would last at work if I went about saying I hate all black people ff's, 2 seconds is how long (I don't hate all black people I'm just sayin')
If you truly believe that all white people are rascist discuss it with your friends but don't spout on twitter like a fool. Silly arse has now lost her job and could probably have really been somebody. Will now be a nobody - hope it was worth it.

No one is exclusively discussing the gender of the person no but are we discussion the content of what they actually said?

Are we learning about how, perhaps white people are enjoying significant provilidge based on racism without realising it.

Or are we discussion trans issues?

Should I not be allowed to have an opinion on sexism because I'm middle class

This is not a valid analogy.

We are talking about people born male, still biologically male having opinions on what women are and on how we are oppressed.

This thread is getting ridiculous. We have had claims of oppression for POC, women, Scots, Welsh, the lower classes, Catholics, dalit, etc, etc.
Is there anybody left who doesn't claim to be oppressed? Prince William maybe.

Most rubbish in the North East goes to Sweden.

Most rubbish in the North West goes to Ireland.

There are factories employing people in Africa to refurbish old phones and lithium is a valuable source.

It's the USA that contributes most to the climate change currently in force. Those countries who contribute less in terms of carbon production are the ones that suffer the most.

There are many shops in Manchester that have cellars were people who worked in mills used to live. Slave trade right there to clothe the wealthy in the United Kingdom.

And if you don't think there are sweat shops still existing in the UK, then you are very much head in the sand.