Munroe Bergdorf sacked by l'oreal

[Biddlyboo]

Has anyone seen this news story today? The irony that a mtt transgender goes off on one about race when the exact same thing can be said about men's privilege and society standing on the backs of women...
Sorry, just made me a bit
www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/41127404/loreal-sacks-first-transgender-model-munroe-bergdorf
Can't do clicky link!

Back to the OP.

It said Has anyone seen this news story today? The irony that a mtt transgender goes off on one about race when the exact same thing can be said about men's privilege and society standing on the backs of women...

When BME men stand up and talk about race issues, do we call out their male priviledge? Do we start lengthy threads arguing about whether it's ironic or not?

Or is it just trans MTTs?

I don't remember any black men getting called out for their priviledge while talking about racism on this board. Why not?

This kind of shit is really damaging to the gender critical argument IMO.

THIS is what makes us look like bigots.

this thread is in Feminism Chat

I am well aware of that.

My point is -

1. Munroe is a black person with something to say about race. Munroe is talking about things we usually sweep under the carpet but which any thinking, copassionate person should at least listen to and consider respectfully.

1. By turning this into a trans issue you are damaging the gender critical cause. You are giving ammo to those who think we're just bigots. Please stop. Please use some critical thought to examine your response because - see point 1.

Maybe, but the OP was entitled to start whatever thread they wanted.

You keep implying that it is derailing the discussion to talk about the trans issue. I was simply pointing out that it isn't. You can't make people have exactly the discussion you want to have.

the OP was entitled to start whatever thread they wanted

Indeed, and the rest of us are entitled to respond.

Sorry, what's your point?

My point is as valid as yours.

You keep implying that it is derailing the discussion to talk about the trans issue.

I'm saying it makes you look like a bigot, and the rest of the gender critical people by implication.

I'm not saying people are derailing - I'm saying they're being hypocrytical.

To focus on her trans status and use it to dismiss her point (and especially if you are white) is not on.

By all means talk about her trans status - but don't try to use it to invalidate her point or say we shouldn't consider what she's saying.

As someone who grew up with bigotry on a massive scale in Northern Ireland, I'm offended by this accusation. You obviously have no idea!

THIS is what makes us look like bigots.

What, just considering Bergdorf's trans status makes you a bigot? No it doesn't. Whether you think it is relevant to the discussion is a matter of opinion.

Do you actually understand what bigotry is Just

And bullshit, everyone knows they're men but are either too polite, too scared or too nice to say.

Sorry Datun, but abusive behaviour by trans-activists - no matter how vile - does not excuse vile behaviour in return. Two wrongs don't make a right is 101 from basic rules of morality. As is painting everyone with the same brush.

I have worked with a few transwomen and found it both incomprehensible and impossibly brave. Basic research into the issue demonstrates that no one is yet qualified to make the definitive statements that ereshkigal would have us believe.

I will absolutely call out anyone that persists on calling transwomen 'men' because those people are encouraging and enabling hate, oppression and abuse. They are complicit in the high suicide rates of people with gender dysphoria. This is especially reprehensible when said people are supposedly clued-up on issues of oppression.

To me, this issue has similarities with the race issue, because in both cases it feels like there is resentment. Resentment at having to create space for transwomen*, and (white) resentment at being on the side of oppression.

*Except, of course, respect, safety and liberty is not a zero sum game. It's a false premise that improved rights for transwomen equates to reduced rights for women.

Also I personally haven't used it a reason to dismiss Bergdorf's opinions. I mostly agree with what Bergdorf said.

I will absolutely call out anyone that persists on calling transwomen 'men' because those people are encouraging and enabling hate, oppression and abuse. They are complicit in the high suicide rates of people with gender dysphoria. This is especially reprehensible when said people are supposedly clued-up on issues of oppression.

This is typical hyperbolic bullshit. They are male. Stop gaslighting women.

And they were my words you quoted, not Datun's.

but abusive behaviour by trans-activists - no matter how vile - does not excuse vile behaviour in return.

Do you actually understand abusive behaviour? Do you care about FGM? Do you care about breast ironing? Do you care about sectarian killings?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarianism

Calling out a male as a he is not bigotry or sectarianism. It's impolite. But there is a difference here between ill manners and bigotry and sectarianism.

Vile behaviour is totally personal. I could say spitting on the streets is vile behaviour would this wouldn't in any way compare to men who kill trans women, because it only ever is men who kill trans women.

It's a false premise that improved rights for transwomen equates to reduced rights for women.

No it is not. How do you work that one out when what is being talked about erases females as a category and sex class? You're completely clueless, or dishonest.

So just to reiterate. Growing up and working as a Catholic during 'The Troubles' in Northern Ireland no one would deny that I experienced sectarianism, which is a form of bigotry. I left at 20 because I could and because I couldn't stand the oppression any longer.

However, having experienced bigotry, I'm now being accused of doing it myself.

Rather like saying if you were brought up in an abusive household, you will go on to abuse yourself.

However, having experienced bigotry, I'm now being accused of doing it myself.

To use similar logic to certain people on this thread, it is this kind of thing that makes many people reject and dismiss all social justice movements. IMO the concept of privilege is only useful as part of class analysis. Otherwise it just becomes a competition of who is the most oppressed. Both black people and women are structurally oppressed as a class. There are limits to how much that tells us about a given individual.

Sorry should have used italics for your quote, Elendon.

Munroe is talking about things we usually sweep under the carpet but which any thinking, copassionate person should at least listen to and consider respectfully.

That all white people are racist? Even those white people who experience racism?

Is Bergdorf excluding Jewish and Irish?

Bergdorf does have a valid point to make, I totally get it. However not all white people. And to dismiss those white people who have experienced racism is hurtful.

*When BME men stand up and talk about race issues, do we call out their male priviledge? Do we start lengthy threads arguing about whether it's ironic or not?

Or is it just trans MTTs?

I don't remember any black men getting called out for their priviledge while talking about racism on this board. Why not?*

No one has answered this.

Anone care to give it a go?

When did we last criticise a black man for talking about racism?

"Definition of bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance"

Let's not play oppression olympics please.

I'm extremely worried by the pushing of the trans agenda.

However - turning something contentious said by a trans person that has NOTHING to do with gender, into a trans debate makes me want to weep with frustration.

We're not going to win the trans argument like this. It just makes it look like you hate trans people.

just

1. Munroe is a black person with something to say about race. Munroe is talking about things we usually sweep under the carpet but which any thinking, copassionate person should at least listen to and consider respectfully.

I have. And I for one, am very grateful for this thread. It's incredible, to me.

I frequently talk to men on here who, despite intellectually understanding sexism, don't really get it, because they're not women. However much they want to. And some do want to, they really do.

I am now totally seeing how this applies to racism. White people, even if they really want to, won't ever really get it, because they don't live it.

I'm far more comfortable talking about feminist issues and how the trans ideology impacts women, because they both directly effect me. I feel it.. Profoundly.

So the two strands to this, for me, racism and sexism, are entirely separate. One does not trump the other. But sexism is something I can talk about, from the heart, whilst racism isn't.

But the fact that I can lay one over the other, like a blue print, is a bit of an eye opener.

It's a bit humbling, tbh.

Rather like saying if you were brought up in an abusive household, you will go on to abuse yourself.

Not all people that are abused are abusive, of course. However, I suspect that, if you are abusive, the chances are that you were abused. Isn't that the case?

Anyway, I'm sure that people that are abusive probably feel that they're entitled to be abusive. They probably get quite indignant when they're called out on it.

Shit rolls downhill, as an old manager of mine was fond of saying.

However, I suspect that, if you are abusive, the chances are that you were abused. Isn't that the case?

No.