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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Can we talk about liberal feminism?

528 replies

JigglyTuff · 26/08/2017 23:20

It's late and I've had wine and so this is probably a bit disjointed. BUT liberal feminism seems like a complete clusterfuck to me. It's all about 'reflecting on things' and apologising. God, so much apologising. I don't think white heterosexual lefty men spend their lives saying 'mea culpa' do they? But white het women seem to be on a mission to self-abase. It's really fucking odd and quite disturbing.

Is anyone else seeing this or do I need to start wearing a tinfoil hat or something?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 31/08/2017 18:03

"I am glad that you see that liberal feminists did make and continue to make positive contributions to women and feminism.smile"

Fair enough. A sensible response to points made would have been more helpful............

Original poster
JigglyTuff · 31/08/2017 18:12

YY Bertrand. And how do you identify out of things like FGM, child marriage, exclusion from education etc etc?

OP posts:
SophoclesTheFox · 31/08/2017 18:13

I totally agree about the hollowness of "choice"as a driver.

VestalVirgin · 31/08/2017 18:19

I don't think one can compare the liberal feminism of the past with nowadays liberal feminism.

Back when it was obvious that there was no equality, the "equal to men" idea gave some motivation to actually change things, remove the official obstacles to women.

One could work within patriarchal structures to achieve a right for women to have our own bank accounts, et cetera.

Nowadays, there's almost nothing left of the inequalities that men openly enforce. We have "equality".

And now we see who is content with that and who wants liberation.

BertrandRussell · 31/08/2017 18:22

Yes- I don't think today's liberal feminists can really claim women's suffrage..........

Moussemoose · 31/08/2017 18:29

BertrandRussell

Yes- I don't think today's liberal feminists can really claim women's suffrage

Why not?

The main stream women's suffrage movement was about working towards changing legislation. Very liberal. Women were considered responsible for their own choices. Early part of the 20th century a class analysis would,be common but not a consideration of woman as a class.

As radical feminism didn't really exist until late in the 60s it would be silly to claim any legislation prior to this as relating to rad fems.

ANYWAY - the laws were passed and fought for by women for women, trying to reframe history using modern terminology is a fruitless activity.

Moussemoose · 31/08/2017 18:39

SophoclesTheFox

I totally agree about the hollowness of "choice"as a driver

And yet people do make choices and they must be allowed to take responsibility for those choices. The concept of false consciousness really doesn't help anyone to move forward.

People can be empowered when told they have a choice. By denying people free will you have an excuse for making 'less than positive' choices.

And yet class and gender, societies expectations and capitalism do work to exploit people I am very much aware of that. Education, action and legislation are all needed to improve lives but ( the majority) people ( born in the UK) are able to make choices.

BertrandRussell · 31/08/2017 18:39

ANYWAY - the laws were passed and fought for by women for women, trying to reframe history using modern terminology is a fruitless activity"

I agree. I was responding to others. I though, actually, to you, but I must be wrong.

BertrandRussell · 31/08/2017 18:43

"Education, action and legislation are all needed to improve lives but ( the majority) people ( born in the UK) are able to make choices."

So do you think that prostitures and porn actors in this country are making free choices? Are the people who stereotype their children according to sex making free choices? The women who stay with abusive men? How about them?

Thephoneywar · 31/08/2017 18:54

Surely the whole point of feminism is to enable women to have freedom to choose how they want to live their lives? Their choice may not be feminist, but feminism allowed them the right to choose.

BertrandRussell · 31/08/2017 18:59

Surely the whole point of feminism is to make life better for women?

Ereshkigal · 31/08/2017 19:04

This is a key difference I think. Radical feminism is much more about the collective and the class of women. Liberal feminism, certainly modern liberal feminism emphasises individualism and choice. Thus the support for "gender identity".

Moussemoose · 31/08/2017 19:07

If you make equal pay, radfems got you that in 1963

Page 1 DJBaggy said this among other things.

As rad fems as a movement didn't exist then, it is a slightly problematic statement. Most feminists before the late 60s were liberal feminists.

Ereshkigal · 31/08/2017 19:08

This is a key difference I think. Radical feminism is much more about the collective and improving the condition of the female class as a whole. Liberal feminism, certainly modern liberal feminism emphasises individualism and personal choice, even arguably damaging choice. Thus the support for "gender identity".

Ereshkigal · 31/08/2017 19:09

Apols for multiple posts.

Ereshkigal · 31/08/2017 19:10

Lumping 60s liberal feminism in with the pomo idiocy that often passes for it today is also "problematic".

Seachangeshell · 31/08/2017 19:19

'A woman's right to choose '.
I agree that the concept of 'choice' is applied willy nilly these days but women having choices is an important part of feminism.

Moussemoose · 31/08/2017 19:20

A link I've seen used before:

newint.org/sections/argument/2014/03/01/argument-can-porn-be-ethical/

The women in the link makes what she refers to as ethical pornography. I think she is making an informed choice. Does this apply to all people in pornograhy obviously not. Some individuals involved do make this choice I am not going to use class analysis to deny them responsibility for their choices.

People who stereotype their children? Well there was a thread the other day about playground mums and stereotypes I would not tell some of those posters they were not making free decisions. Do we need to educate? Yes.

Women staying with abusive men. This is not an area I have worked in closely, but, i have been told that by saying "you don't have a choice" or "society forces you to stay" this is disempowering. The individual needs to be made aware of their ability to choose.

Thephoneywar · 31/08/2017 19:22

@Bertrand,

The problem is that outside of equality of law 'better for women' is entirely subjective. What you think is best for women may not be what another woman thinks is best. Why does your subjective view on what is best for women outweigh my right to choose.

Moussemoose · 31/08/2017 19:23

Ereshkigal

Lumping 60s liberal feminism in with the pomo idiocy that often passes for it today is also "problematic"

Correct. Which is why claiming historical victories for modern movements is best avoided.

Most feminists before the late 60s were liberal feminists but not lib fem iyswim.

Moussemoose · 31/08/2017 19:59

So a class analysis is really important intellectually. A consideration of the way society acts on women as a class is really useful for considering how we need to move society forward and what changes are needed.

However, if an individual woman in a western, wealthy society, who has had access to education, makes a choice I don't agree with that is absolutely her choice to make and her consequences to deal with.

Caveat: this choice and the freedom to make choices can only happen when equality is enshrined in legislation if not society. Also, capitalism doesn't helpWink

QuentinSummers · 31/08/2017 20:31

As rad fems as a movement didn't exist then, it is a slightly problematic statement. Most feminists before the late 60s were liberal feminists.
I think there is a conflation with radical feminism with second wave which could be causing confusion here.
I also think many feminists who just believe in improving the lot of women are forced into taking a rad fem label because of how broad the modern intersectional, liberal feminism is.
I joined an intersectional lib fem online group and literally every woman mentioned was "problematic. Caitlin Moran was SWERF. Karen Ingala Smith was a transphobe. Anyone white was a "white feminists so should shut up. It's fine for porn sites to run sex ed for girls, it's empowering and if you disagree you are a SWERF. I did not see a single post about how to improve things for women, but a lot of navel gazing about how feminists are doing feminism wrong.
Then I come on here and see posters like dione arguing that it's rad fems who are picky and we are doing feminism wrong.

EyesUnderARock · 31/08/2017 20:49

Perhaps key feminist philosophies and agendas could be bottled and labelled by year, to try and make sense of the muddle, intersectionality, trans complexities and acronyms
I think that Spartacus and I are a much earlier vintage.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 31/08/2017 20:55

also think many feminists who just believe in improving the lot of women are forced into taking a rad fem label because of how broad the modern intersectional, liberal feminism is.

I agree, ive got no clue whats going on

Ive only just come with the 'must be a rad fem' as i agree with more of it

Original poster
JigglyTuff · 31/08/2017 20:56

Yes Quentin I totally agree with you. I'm in my early 50s and wouldn't have necessarily described myself as a radfem until fairly recently. I think for many years, I tried to change things from within. But with the advent of intersectonalist pomo nonsense, I became a radfem virtually overnight.

The less I'm immersed in that world (I'm an ex-Londoner), the more I can see it for the charlatanism it is

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