Can we talk about liberal feminism?

[JigglyTuff]

It's late and I've had wine and so this is probably a bit disjointed. BUT liberal feminism seems like a complete clusterfuck to me. It's all about 'reflecting on things' and apologising. God, so much apologising. I don't think white heterosexual lefty men spend their lives saying 'mea culpa' do they? But white het women seem to be on a mission to self-abase. It's really fucking odd and quite disturbing.

Is anyone else seeing this or do I need to start wearing a tinfoil hat or something?

I find being told that unless I accept "trans women ARE women" etc I would not be welcome in a feminist group very divisive and depressing. That is my most recent experience of liberal feminism.

Just when I think (delude myself?) that we can all jolly along together, because , you know - women!!! and this kind of stuff happens. Its all over the WWW and it happens a lot. Discussion shut down - accept these men are actual women and their issues ARE women's issues, or you are not welcome.

Just when I think (delude myself?) that we can all jolly along together, because , you know - women!!! and this kind of stuff happens. Its all over the WWW and it happens a lot. Discussion shut down - accept these men are actual women and their issues ARE women's issues, or you are not welcome

It's got complex. In the old days, men shut down women's conversations with 'you must be a man hater' or 'that's just women's issues' or 'that's not relevant'. Now they claim to 'be' women and suddenly it's OK for women to talk, as long as they have XY chromosomes and penises. Otherwise, the old rules still apply.

Radical...root...source. If the source is not the purest form, what is?
As I said, I'm vegetarian. I have vegan friends, I don't see them as humourless or alien, but sometimes I avoid getting into animal ethics one or two of them as there is no middle ground. So no, I think my medley of viewpoints would make relaxing in some feminist company difficult.
In the same way that I love my daughter, even though she thinks I'm a TERF because I see trans as identifying as women, but not actual women.
Both anti porn and prostitution, so some common ground. Room for all of us? Because we have enough opposing us already.

But if course people are going to disagree! And that's ok. Granted, the OP could have been better phrased, Op said she had had wine, but fundamentally, it is ok to disagree. I am Ok with there being many different strands and approaches to feminism, but am also OK with there being challenges around how much feminist analysis someone's position might contain. The reason I "picked on" Dion is that she's on record for enjoying a good old poke at how unsisterly the feminists of FWR are and how this board doesn't do her kind of feminism- am I being unfair there Dione?

Is that really liberal feminism though? Surely not.
I don't want to categorise myself as any particular kind of feminist.
I am gender critical. I am pro Nordic model. I think improvements to women's lives can be made through changes to the law. So doesn't that make me a liberal feminist?
I think the people you describe who say that men can be women are so fuzzy headed in there thinking that they can't really be said to be feminists at all.
Just thinking of a feminist in the public eye. Surely someone like Stella Creasey is a liberal feminist. I can't imagine she believes in blue brains and pink brains either.
Having said that I haven't tried to join a lib fem group.

That's part of the point. You would find it very difficult to express certain widely held feminist views in say a lib fem Facebook group or to speak about women's biology or imply biological sex was a relevant factor. You would likely be banned if you didn't apologise. They are waiting for people to say something they can pounce upon as transphobic, racist or denying women's "agency".

I find a lot of modern feminism involves getting pounced on, picked up on or shouted/ranted at. By all sorts of factions under the umbrella of feminism. Rather than a debate, or any acceptance that another holds a different POV for what they see as excellent reasons.

Yes Sophocles, you are being unfair. I do not "enjoy a good old poke" at FWR. I do not enjoy reading and responding to posts that diminish and dismiss the work done by liberal fems both day to day and historically. I see no benefit to feminism or women's rights as a whole of creating such divisions, rather I see it as a divide and conquer tactic that gets in the way of women achieving true equality in our society.

You don't only get banned, you get abused. By women. For being hateful and transphobic because you think Transwomen are Transwomen and not actually women. You get accused of hating Transwomen and harming them. You even see it here on MN.

And you aren't allowed to talk about the harm that insisting TW are W does to women either, because the harm you do to Transwomen outweighs everything. You become invalid.

Imagine insisting gay men date Transmen, even Transmen with breasts and a vagina. And if those gay men didn't do this, if they weren't up for this, they were called transphobic and haters and people who hurt Trans people. Its an absolutely ridiculous scenario and would never in a million fucking years happen. And if I suggested this to gay men that I know they would (rightly) ask me if I was on glue?

And you aren't allowed to talk about the harm that insisting TW are W does to women either, because the harm you do to Transwomen outweighs everything. You become invalid.

Yes exactly right. They will not listen to a word you say once you've been written off as transphobic. However logical, reasonable or evidenced. I do it for the lurkers.

But you yourself nurture those divisions, Dione, by running down the FWR boards. I've seen you do it! Sheesh.

OK, I will ask very plainly: do you find FWR a useful place for discussing feminism? Do you think it contains useful feminist analysis?

Yes, I know that's what happens. I just can't believe that they are representative of liberal feminists.
People on that Facebook group may call themselves that, but it doesn't mean all liberal feminists think like that or even that most do.

I do think this behavior (Transwomen are women) is rooted in liberal feminism (a radical feminist would never in a million years utter such tripe), but I understand not ALL liberal feminists think like this.

Still I don't see them leaping to anyone's defense or pushing for debate about these "rulings". I think many of them are fucking confused by it all and possibly afraid to discuss as they don't want to be called a hater or shut out. So remind me how is this feminism again?

seachangeshell, I do wonder how representative the "oh my god, BIGOT" feminists are of liberal feminism, or mainstream feminism (don't know what to call it now). Thing is, it's hard to tell because people who don't like confrontation are afraid to speak freely in many places. I've heard too many stories of gender critical feminists being hounded out of groups. It's definitely the orthodoxy in many places. And I'm just not sure how you get on with doing the work of feminism, using a feminist analysis, when you have to spend so much time and energy policing for transphobia. At best, it's a distraction. At worst, it halts all progress.

i think most of the feminists I know in real life are liberal feminists. Just getting on with their lives type feminists. Supportive but not thinking too much about these issues. Not reading the FWR board obsessively like I do or buying feminist books or thinking about how they can become more involved. But important to the cause nevertheless as supporters, as women who promote feminism through how they work and how they raise their families. How they vote.
They probably don't even know about all the transactivist stuff.

Feminist who dont follow trans ideology are called Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists. TERF's.

I do not enjoy reading and responding to posts that diminish and dismiss the work done by liberal fems both day to day and historically"

You have said this before and I still don't understand what you mean by "the work done by liberal feminists"

I asked you before, and you outlined work done by women that I cannot imagine Boeing dismissed by anyone- whether it was done boy any sort of feminist or someone saying they weren't a feminist at all.

So I ask again. Please can you give me an example of a post dininishing or dismissing the work done by liberal feminists?

Once again Sophocles, I disagree. I ignore the divisions more than I address them. You claim that you have seen me "run down the FWR boards", no doubt you or others here have challenged me and I have responded at the time.

My answer to your subsequent questions is: Sometimes. And I will ask some plain questions of my own:

Do you think that threads and posts that dismiss liberal feminism contributions to improving the lives of women are true?

Should they go unchallenged?

How do they benefit feminism?

Bert, see the "what have liberal feminists done for us" post on pg one. And see my response to it about lib fems in RL along with other posters who have talked about changes in the law.

Thank you DJ, I've just had an interesting womble through a pro trans nerd wiki that introduced me to a lot of acronyms and explanations.
Wasn't a thing 30 years ago; liberal feminism was also linked to supporting victims of other discriminations such as racism and homophobia. Rather than blurring the lines.

"Bert, see the "what have liberal feminists done for us" post on pg one. And see my response to it about lib fems in RL along with other posters who have talked about changes in the law."

But those are not things done because the women concerned are liberal feminists. They were equally fought for by radical feminists and by some women who do not identify as feminist at all.

@EyesUnderARock: "I find a lot of modern feminism involves getting pounced on, picked up on or shouted/ranted at. By all sorts of factions under the umbrella of feminism. Rather than a debate, or any acceptance that another holds a different POV for what they see as excellent reasons."

Yes! That was exactly my point. And to avoid all of those things, there is endless apologising.

I have just been reading this: www.feministcurrent.com/2016/08/10/coming-non-binary-throws-women-bus/ great article about the whole nonsense of non-binary. Someone I know has recently 'come out' as non-binary. It's utter nonsense and I can tell some of the other women I know in the same feminist group also think it's utter nonsense but they don't dare say anything because they'd be rounded on for being bigoted and unsupportive.

And if women can't talk to one another and debate openly, then we have a really big problem

Do you think that threads and posts that dismiss liberal feminism contributions to improving the lives of women are true?

I don't really understand the question, but what bert is saying about feminist contributions coming from across the spectrum rings true to me. Did you see the bit where I explain that for a lot of my life I'd have described myself as a liberal feminist? But you don't see me taking it personally, because I'm making the effort to understand where the critique is being aimed. At faux-feminism/feminism lite/man-centred feminism or whatever we're calling that.

Should they go unchallenged?

What, the contributions or the posts? Challenge what you like. I'm not the board boss. But I might disagree.

How do they benefit feminism?

Well, for my money, my eyes were opened on this very board by the trojan horse of gender identity, which tends to work against women's rights, but clothed in the sheep's clothing of righteousness. So the challenge in this case absolutely benefitted feminism, because it jump started me out of a political slump I was in, and back into action. So, assuming that my net contribution is positive, then there is your benefit.

My worry about liberal feminism centre on the idea that feminism is about choice. An action does not become feminist just because a woman does it. And very many choices women make are not free choices- they are driven by fear, by conditioning, by societal pressures. And it is not, as I have been frequently told, calling women stupid or weak willed to acknowledge this. And having a branch of feminism that says, for example, that prostitution is just as legitimate a work choice as accountancy is, I think, dangerous.

I am glad that you see that liberal feminists did make and continue to make positive contributions to women and feminism.