White women- it's all your fault

[WeldMeDaphne]

I will preface this by saying that I am indeed a white woman. And I realise this affords me a lot of privilege.
Among a lot of the rhetoric around the Events unfolding in the US (mostly Charlottesville), I've seen a number of open letters to white women about our complicity in the neo-nazi and white supremacist movement in the US and elsewhere. Clearly those women marching last week on the nazi side were white, but there was a lot of suggestion that those white women not marching but associated with men marching (wives girlfriends etc) were just as culpable as the men wielding torches and assault rifles. I guess I would like some help understanding how this is a white woman issue rather than the white men being responsible for their own actions? I get that one of those pieces said those men are going home to pie cooked by their doting wives but I just feel as though a man who holds those views and has no issue with demonstrating them publically is unlikely to be a caring loving husband?
I am fully prepared to listen to all view points and I totally understand that the people on these marches are white, but they're mostly men, right? Sonhow is this women's fault?

Oleanna "I'm sorry, I don't agree.

Of course tacitly (or otherwise) endorsing the vile hatred that these people spew is unacceptable. There are many people who create the environment where others feel able to say and do this stuff without fear of being called out, socially shamed, arrested or opposed. Notably, of course, Trump himself.

But endorsing something is a long way short of actually doing something, and it's really important to maintain this distinction."

No, there is no difference. And that's the point. Evil will triumph when good men do nothing and all that.

So far we have had...

1. Endorsing wrong doing is equivalent to wrong doing.
2. Being related to a wrong doer is equivalent to wrong doing.
3. Doing nothing is equivalent to wrong doing.

I guess you didn't criticize Trump for his reaction?

@muchomo well done for standing up and I agree that it's not your place to educate people on issues they have no interest in looking into because it does not affect them.

Is this thread meant to make people of colour feel sorry for white women? I don't because some are they are part of racism. They did the same during slavery. So many women in uk owned slaves too. They don't care about where they money came from or who was raping and beating their slave on the other side of the world. But they used that very money to feed their children.

Secondly, the statues being taken down in America now or going to be where paid for by women who wanted their men remembered for their great work in the war and previously. The men matching trying to protect this statues are protecting what white women built.

What this thread is doing is the opposite of feminism. The constant infantilisation of white women. The view that white women can do no wrong and it must be someone else's fault they are being mentioned as racist. Well, there are as many racist white women as there is men. The men are just braver or more aggressive when showing their faces with the thought that they are protecting their women and children by taking their country back.

Resolving white women off any wrong doing when it comes to race is feminist issue and it always has been. Look at your history as white women.
Please don't come with, "we helped with getting the vote" well no you didn't. In America, white women where debating between themselves on who should get the vote first. Them or black men. In their argument they saw themselves above black men and they should get the vote first. When they fought for the votes and black men where included, it wants because they saw them as equals. It was an alliance they thought it was make sense and the white men would understand and agree with. Where was black women, not even being considered. What I find fascinating is the constant praise for these women and what they did without acknowledging the history.
The link between feminism and fights for civil rights and that of racism is one of a coincidence.

I am happy and glad that those who made decision to include black women in the right vote with the rest of white women and black men because the intention was to leave them behind.

So this is why I struggle with the idea that any of these women who are not out there marching are in much of a position to really make much of a stand. If they're complicit, it's not by choice...
well poor women. Not all racist would have been at that match. Secondly, there a more racist women out there and some are feminist redfam too. White women can be racist and it not wrong for people to call them that.

Hardy, yes I did. It was an inappropriate reaction.

Are you saying it is the fault of white women that white supremacy exists ? White women and white men go hand in hand when it comes to racism. One is no better to the other. I will also, say that a lot of white women would rather go against racism and put up with misogyny to protect their own.

So yes white women are part of racism.

While there are some miscarriages of justice, and I agree poc suffer from this more than white, by the time it gets through court and convicted it's rare that a woman is lying. Claiming women lying is a normal thing, regardless of race, is extremely harmful rhetoric. there is a history of this. I don't know how prominent this is now but it used to be the done thing and this was not long ago. Some where also made up to send black men to prison as form of racism. It's not something that was unheard of. It's a known thing.

Also, a lot of black men who dated white women was co skidded rape. Maybe that also obscured the narrative and numbers that would have floated about.

I guess you didn't criticize Trump for his reaction? Trump is not denying his allegiance to white supremacy. The calling out of white women is because they pretend and act like they are not part of racism. You would think people would understand this.
I would assume we all know trump is racist and misogynistic. When he said what he said, shook heads and added it to pile of things we already know about.
With white women is the denial that white women cant be involved in racism. And if they are they must be because they are there with no choices.

Well it's the same reason lots of black men where prosecuted for rape because all the white women where absolved of the action for falling in love with black men and treated like a non thinking person who black men forced themselves against. Most where in relationships. This is excluding those who felt aggrieved and reported crimes that didn't happen based on racism.
While white men could easily rape black women and get away with it. (Yes there is a history of this too, from slavery days up to late 60s ).

I am not denying that lots of rapist get away with rape. Just to add, rape cases reported by black women or the reporting of it is feminist issue too when it comes to looking black women.

@WeldMeDaphne your thread and comments and denial of white women active roles in perpetuating racism is usually known as the goldilocks effects on some black feminist circles. They never see themselves as part of the problem because of their fragility and childlike infantilisation and need for protection. Some feminist try to break away from this but it always creeps back in on threads like this one.

But he isn't doing anything wrong, he is just endorsing it.

So I am confused as to your previous post.

I've been reading back through this thread and I was much impressed by muchomo Mon 21-Aug-17 22:35:22 - I would like to say she is spot on with many of her observations. I can feel her daily pain and frustration.

We enter here into the new world of intersectionality and I think we (all groups) are negotiating this unknown territory as best we can. When we want to point out inequality, we compare with another group that is identical except with respect to the marker we're interested in e.g. women talk about inequality and so compare men and women's salaries. When black women want to measure inequality, they compare themselves with white women. Doing so has the unfortunate consequence of setting groups up against each other. I'm sure watching white women promoted above black women is a crushing daily blow to black women - but we should all be wary of competing in Oppression Olympics.

Racism and sexism are two of the world's worst social scourges. The 60s rights movement asked society questions like what makes us human and what gives the right of one human to lord it over another extended beyond race. Race was the crucible that ignited a huge discourse still felt today. To an extent I suppose the different interest groups fed off each other - as advancements were made for one group, another group could claim similar treatment. We should all be supporting one another, not claiming one group has more importance even though as an individual, we may feel one injustice trumps another. It surely is true that the feminist movement in Western countries is dominated by white women, and they will be less aware of prejudice against WOC - how could they be otherwise? Education is the answer, not accusation.

wrt the title post: it's amazing how often women are seen as enablers. As a society, women are expected to perform their role and shut up. Then when their husband does shit, the woman bares half the blame because? She made him dinner? Seems hard to fathom. But the general point is that women are just as brainwashed as the men. Men voted for Trump. Men are white nationalists. Only feminists are surprised when we find out that women also voted for Trump and women also are white nationalists. It doesn't fit our (feminist) idea that some women don't want to liberated, and that some women want nasty things like maintaining the current power structure to favour whites over blacks.

Sorry - I posted instead of previewed. My ideas are overlong and jumbled!

We enter here into the new world of intersectionality and I think we (all groups) are negotiating this unknown territory as best we can. When we want to point out inequality, we compare with another group that is identical except with respect to the marker we're interested in e.g. women talk about inequality and so compare men and women's salaries. When black women want to measure inequality, they compare themselves with white women. Doing so has the unfortunate consequence of setting groups up against each other. You are missing the point completely and it ties in with this thread and the view carried through and constantly. Soon we will be told about how white women are meant to be the mother of everybody and carry everyone through.
Well, It's not about who is worse but stating facts. White women want black women's inequality to be lumped in with theirs. But the difference is they are part of the racism that leads to the idea that black women are worth less compared to white women in the work place.
White women then look at the starts and cry innocence and how we should all be fighting this together when we all know that racism does not affect them and nor will they stand up when there is misogynior (means of which black women are judged differently to white women. Something that white women are part.)

Quencher Thank you so much? Your posts are spot on. I will comment in depth at a later in the day

Men voted for Trump. Men are white nationalists. Only feminists are surprised when we find out that women also voted for Trump and women also are white nationalists. It doesn't fit our (feminist) idea that some women don't want to liberated, and that some women want nasty things like maintaining the current power structure to favour whites over blacks. Ask your self this, What would they want to be liberated from? The existence of racism, patriarchy or both. The fact is they choose misogynistic racist arse sir that they can remain racist. Feminism can wait and racism needs to continue. That's what they stood for.

Only feminists are surprised when we find out that women also voted for Trump and women also are white nationalists. I am going to say this again. Another way people think women don't have brains to think and choose for themselves. Infantilising the women because the men and the churches made them vote that way. (Bible Belt and redneck areas). However, there was lots of middle class white men and women who voted for trump all over America and 4% of bonkers black people.
If we have moved forward, why can't they attitude, when probably they value racism more.

White women 'cry innocent'? Oh do get lost.

I get shouted down regularly for poking my beak into cultures I don't understand. Women of colour all over the world are subjugated, oppressed and treated in some cases as mere property. But when I have an opinion about that I'm asked to butt out and stop judging the culture of others. By the women themselves.

See every headscarf debate, ever.

Flatpacker I'm glad you find my posts "impressive" but I find your post was condescending and S bavkeard compliment. I wasn't trying to impress anyone on here.

Only feminists are surprised when we find out that women also voted for Trump and women also are white nationalists

I doubt anyone is surprised by either of those facts given the large number of women at Trump rallies long before the election.

With white women is the denial that white women cant be involved in racism

Who is denying this? I do however deny that what happened in Charlottesville has anything to do with me.

'But he isn't doing anything wrong, he is just endorsing it.

So I am confused as to your previous post.'

My previous post is not confusing at all.

Firstly, we're not talking about Trump as the focus of this thread. He is in a position of unique power as the president, and should be judged in that context.

We're talking about whether we can make a distinction between someone who commits a specific crime, someone who endorses that crime, someone who is related to someone who commits a specific crime, and someone who does nothing about someone else committing a crime.

Democracies and their legal systems are in part based on our ability to make that distinction.

All my comments were made in good faith and I had no intention of being condescending, muchomo. You can't tell me how to interpret my reactions to your words, thank you.

White women want black women's inequality to be lumped in with theirs. But the difference is they are part of the racism that leads to the idea that black women are worth less compared to white women in the work place - women's inequality is a marker of all women, of whatever race or religion. Black women have the double burden of racism. Being a white woman does not automatically make you racist.
White women then look at the starts and cry innocence and how we should all be fighting this together when we all know that racism does not affect them and nor will they stand up when there is misogynior But how do you know what happens in my workplace? I do find it perverse how all white women are put into your racist category simply because of the colour of their skin.

Flatpacker those are not my posts you are referencing me too. Although they are great points

Racism and sexism aren't added together for black women. Racism shapes and colours the sexism that they face. They don't face the same sexism as white women plus the same racism as black men. The racism and sexism that they face are both different to the experiences of black men and white women.

Flatpacker how do we know anything then? Black women are having these experiences, rather than acknowledge it your trying very had to minimise and trivialise the points that have been made.

HorridHenryrule
Blaming the parents for the way adults turn out is ridiculous. Good people such as Gavin de Becker come from bad families. Good families usually have at least one bad apple.
Real life is more complex than that.

I'm reading a article in the NY Times about how white nationalism has been with the US throughout its history. Partway through, you discover the author's story: she was born and raised by a family of white nationalists and went on marches with her family as a child. She renounced her upbringing a few years ago. Just an interesting idea how as an 'implicit' woman, she is now battling the white nationalists. It is by your actions etc...

www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/women-joining-alt-right/

Discussion here of the numbers of women involved, and what their attitudes are.