White women- it's all your fault

[WeldMeDaphne]

I will preface this by saying that I am indeed a white woman. And I realise this affords me a lot of privilege.
Among a lot of the rhetoric around the Events unfolding in the US (mostly Charlottesville), I've seen a number of open letters to white women about our complicity in the neo-nazi and white supremacist movement in the US and elsewhere. Clearly those women marching last week on the nazi side were white, but there was a lot of suggestion that those white women not marching but associated with men marching (wives girlfriends etc) were just as culpable as the men wielding torches and assault rifles. I guess I would like some help understanding how this is a white woman issue rather than the white men being responsible for their own actions? I get that one of those pieces said those men are going home to pie cooked by their doting wives but I just feel as though a man who holds those views and has no issue with demonstrating them publically is unlikely to be a caring loving husband?
I am fully prepared to listen to all view points and I totally understand that the people on these marches are white, but they're mostly men, right? Sonhow is this women's fault?

I fear men equally, all men

This. If one has an ideology that means one is unable to distinguish people as individuals then one is going to be blind to the difference between people. If you can see all men as completely threatening, then you see all black people as... all white women as.... This is any different from basic profiling of people based on characteristics of birth. Thus all women are not all women at all, but a concept of women. And that white feminist concept of women often excludes woc.

THAT, in a nutshell.

And so many people failing to acknowledge their privilege here. I keep hearing, people need to listen to women, people need to stop telling women what their experiences are... and here we are with white women telling woc how it is.

Blaming women for the actions of men is what patriarchy does.

We're right back to racism is something men do and we have nothing to do with it so you need to be quiet. it's endemic within the progressive movement: "I've got my right-on badge and am hereby absolved of all society's ills because I stand apart from it. I can also tell people that their opinion is crap crap crap whilst mine is gospel."

We're right back to racism is something men do and we have nothing to do with it so you need to be quiet. it's endemic within the progressive movement: "I've got my right-on badge and am hereby absolved of all society's ills because I stand apart from it. I can also tell people that their opinion is crap crap crap whilst mine is gospel

Oh bollocks. I never said that. I said that blaming women for what men do is not on and is patriarchal. All women should, of course, own their own actions but we are not responsible for those of our partners. And if we are, then WOC equally are when their men are sexist shits.

And don't tell me to be quiet.

've got my right-on badge and am hereby absolved of all society's ills because I stand apart from it. I can also tell people that their opinion is crap crap crap whilst mine is gospel

Are you describing your own actions / words here? You seem to be.

On that pdf link that Spartacus posted, black men's privileges are detailed - if you scroll down there is reference to feminism being anti-black. The author (a MOC) states he found much resistance in the black male community when their male privilege was pointed out to them (by white MC men - so they were understandably suspicious).

I find it a sad state of affairs that WOC can't find any part of feminism that speaks to them. They are women, they suffer prejudice because of their sex, much of the sexism they face is the same as all women. I reject the notion that WOC don't identify with feminism because some white women in NY campaign for feminist causes. I don't identify with those women either even though I share the same sex and skin colour - because they are wealthy and live a completely different life to me. If you want more WOC to identify with feminism, get involved with feminism and bring them in too. As a long time lurker of this board, I can certainly attest to what others have said - feminism is a very, very broad church (which is why I so often say I only speak for myself about my takes on feminism). Make it even more diverse. Talk about sexism targeted at WOC. Bring it in and we can incorporate it.

Mother ideology plays no part in my fear of men. It's socialisation that teaches females to fear men. As their oppression of us is based on their greater strength and our weaker biology.

And that is exactly what class oppression means

Flat if women (of colour or white) explained moc male privilege they are likely to be more dismissive than if white men explain it surely. Men routinely ignore women, allways.

Oh bollocks. I never said that. I said that blaming women for what men do is not on and is patriarchal. All women should, of course, own their own actions but we are not responsible for those of our partners. And if we are, then WOC equally are when their men are sexist shits.

You literally confirmed that you see racism as something that men do that women shouldn't be blamed for. Your only caveat being that, well, if white women do happen to be standing by their racist men, then what about woc standing by their sexist men. I mean, COME ON!!!

The difference between socialization and ideology...?

Oh and another point on the list of white women's privilage- we are not accused of representing our race but women are routinely accused of showing women in a bad light, or making women look bad. Happens on aibu all the time, mums in cafes given all mums a bad name, mums bf in public given bf mums a bad name and so on.

And apologise for being disjointed, that's just my disabilities and how it effects memory. Hopefully no one's going to demand that I sort that out when I've explained that's impossible for me.

Men routinely ignore women, allways.

THAT is ideology.

You don't know the difference between socialisation and ideology?? Socialisation is how we are conditioned to behave as women, trained to appease men.

Ideology is the believes they follow.

No that's experience and numerous studies on this. Men as a class ignore women, disbelieve and devalue us.

You literally confirmed that you see racism as something that men do that women shouldn't be blamed for. Your only caveat being that, well, if white women do happen to be standing by their racist men, then what about woc standing by their sexist men. I mean, COME ON!!!

Oh jesus fucking christ on a pogo stick - please stop putting words in my mouth. I said that women should not be responsible for men's racism (or at least that of their partners). How in the name of the almighty green peppercorn God you are making that say "racism as [is] something that men do that women shouldn't be blamed for" is completely and utterly fucking beyond me. Women can be racist, men can be racist, but women should not be responsible for those acts of racism committed by men. COME ON!!!

Well, at least you owned up to it and confirmed suspicions. I thought it was very clear from my posts

Nobody has addressed a couple of points I made. (I know my writing can be disjointed but still)

The claim that no woc actually say white women are to blame for male violence-i pointed out that on twitter threads that evette Dione started many black women claimed that white women were directly responsible for their husbands actions (these are the ones DV was identified to be present). Public twitter threads easy to see and woc saying it's white women's responsibility for never leaving their violent husbands and not reporting their DV. I pointed out that women leaving abusive partner are at greatest risk of being murdered but still they demanded it was the women's fault that their husbands were white suoremacists. And evette Dionne endorsing alot of this. As I said already earlier that no one addrsssed

I also pointed out how James fields mother is being blamed for his crimes. Despite her being a victim of his physical abuse of her, while she is in a wheelchair, and while she reported to the police and got ignored. Her race didn't help her, she was ignored because she was a woman, yet this very powerless woman gets blamed for her abusers violence.

I'm also not convinced being a feminist or not has any bearing on this. I don't term myself a feminist or a radfem. I belief gender is the class oppression system used by men to maintain control over women. I am pro women's liberation from men. I am pro abolitioning gender. But I don't feel comfortable terming myself a feminist due to the variation in what people claim feminism is. I like the feminist board, and have done women's studies modules, and read feminist works but still I wouldn't say I was a feminist so I think that's a bit of a red herring.

Feminism was the worst thing to happen to black people in America?

In what way, please?

You literally confirmed that you see racism as something that men do that women shouldn't be blamed for.

So if my DH says something racist, I am to be blamed for that?

If someone else's white DH says something racist I am to be blamed for that because I'm white?

I'm totally confused

When men come on here NAMALTing I get their point it's not them, but I want them to admit that it is a problem that some men are for example sexually violent, and discuss how to fix it. They just talk about how unfair it is to say men are violent.

This feels different though. We are acknowledging racism and asking what we can do, and we are being told we are racist.

In answer to your point I bolded, I can deal with my own racism. I can talk to others about racist views they may have and if it were my husband I could LTB. I could cut racist family/friends from my life. But that's as much as I can do. I can't change other people. Noone can do that.

to the extent that this type of bilge directed at my white students I would consider to be extremely damaging racism. I will take your word for it. I gave it as general view. I went to a London inner school and I know what it felt like.
I also, know from studying working class white boys and how they are socialised as and treated by society (how their grades are failing) plus looking at how masculinity plays out in that group. So no, I am not randomly talking without thinking about them. I don't know how it feels about being them but it does not take the system in which they are brought up.

Bashing us because it's easier than taking your argument to the really scary people feels like some sort of safe zone where there's little comeback. Thanks! I will do that. From what I see black people have constantly been doing matches and riots. Well if that's not taking it to the streets then I don't know what is.
What I will do though is limit my comments to post talking about black female celebs and wether I see unfair criticism. If I agree with the post I won't even bother.

A couple of points of those privilage- I do fear assualt my police, because I am a woman and was abused by a peadophile ring including police and social workers for most of my childhood. So I fear police. I can understand why you would be scared.
What I posted was the relationship black people in both the uk and USA have with the police as whole group. We can deny it and that's fine. We can say that in the uk black people are treated better by the police than they do in the USA, and that is true. But that does not take the fear way. The police inability to get through and be trusted by the communities. They might be different now but there is a history and luck trust that has never left.

Unfortunately on this thread it seems very hard to get the point of what you want. I'm sure I'm not the only poster who's frustrated with it.
Defiantly not. Same here because I am wondering why there is a divide and the two groups seem to not agree.

The other difference is that white men are in the most powerful positions. White men are in the positions that can change the law. White men are in the positions that can enforce those changes.
That's why I think it's a red herring to talk about white women. While we have advantages over black people, very very few of us are in a powerful enough position to influence society wide changes. Those people are men.

*I didn't like the point about not being questioned about why you have been given a job. It is routinely implied women get jobs due to tokenism, white or black. White women are more likely to get the jobs but they are still questioned.
If a woman is attractive there may also be variants on "she slept with the boss" or "the boss fancies her". I've been told this as a motivation behind several jobs I've had.

I know it's easier for me to get a job than a black woman. But I (and all women) don't have the privilege listed in that article.*
I agree with your point too. Which is why I stated at the top of the lists after asking about the examples of privilege/s, I stated that I can also, see how some of the examples will be similar to female experiences. I might have said sexism, along that line. Anyone who is willing to listen would have picked up in this point.
It's because the reason you are questioning your self as a female is different to how a black person would question themselves. But both points would still be valid and relevant. I am not making light of the sexism. I answered what asked.
Take for example the north London Cambridge woman who is always being question if she got their on Merit or race card. Was she clever enough to be there and most of the virtual is by white men who feel they missed a place because she must have played the race.
Most people began to tell her that being questioned for being at Cambridge is the tip of the iceberg, because with working in the city she will be questioned on wether she is there to meet quotas and not on merits.

So, let me ask this, how is this not relevant? The same way a woman being asked to if she slept with the boss or its their look that they got a job or promotion.

The other difference is that white men are in the most powerful positions. White men are in the positions that can change the law. White men are in the positions that can enforce those changes

Mind you it was Obama that let men into women's bathrooms ... :)

And while I have my CSA as a reason to fear police I don't think I am the only woman who fears them. A woman alone with male police would he scared just due to social conditioning, that teaches us to be polite and compliant rather than set off men's anger. That's why women police are used when women victims or suspects are there whenever possible. Yes that is true. Not denying because I know and understand what you have just said. However, black women's experience when dealing with the police, especially America, is the police's inability to adjust the force applied to a black female child, black women compared to how they would handle a white child. What is called man handling on this group with no thought has been a black feminist issue for a long time and it's something that other people just don't seem notice.

Also, the way the Media reporting of young black female children, the possibility that more effort will be put into looking for you, compared to how they do to white female children is staggering. This does not take away the fact that white female children are abused by men predominantly. It does not take away the sexism. But the sympathetic nature white children get, especially white girls, is a thing.

I know Rotherham will be brought into this, i understand that too and the racial silence and fear with dealing with this issue.

@Gonegonegone I understand the social conditioning you are talking about. This is the thing though. You mother was no different to the people that abused you. She was horrible an I can't believe how anyone would put their child through shitty things like that.
But what I would say is that socialising would make sense that you would still view women as safer. You would have unconsciously seen your mum as the anomaly because you would have seen and heard about how people talk about women and men general. Stereotypes don't just come from the home but every thing we see and hear.

So, let me ask this, how is this not relevant? The same way a woman being asked to if she slept with the boss or its their look that they got a job or promotion.

It is relevant. Totally relevant. I did not mean to imply that it isn't.
The way black females are perceived and treated is shameful.

I'm wondering if rather than talking about privilege we should talk about disadvantage. I feel like disadvantage is more specific and also a better way for people to talk about their own circumstances. When we talk about privilege we tend to talk about other people's experience and that gets their backs up. I see it on here all the time with our MRA friends but I also see it on this thread with white feminists.
Don't know, just thinking aloud really.

I don't think who voted for trump necessarily tells us a lot either. True! But we could say the same thing about how the brexit vote worked.
Everyone will have dead Bart what went on and how decision where made. We will probably never know.
Also, if you go back and read my post, I gave the example of what I came across and the view which might have led to the title of the thread.
It's the view I got at the time, that does not ignore sexism either.